Receiving Black Belt in multiple arts

[Mr.karate]

In those types of situations yes I would agree. What I meant was that if all things were going good for a person were they are what would be the point then? Why would you do it? The reason I say this is because if you think about it a black belt only means that you have a basic understanding of the style. In that case what would be the point of going from style to style just learning basic things instead of sticking to one style and trying to master it?

Justin

 

[Mark Lynn]

In my previous post I mentioned about the Isshinryu instructor that I know. And he was happy doing the same style for many years (30+) and except for period of time when he took the TKD/hapkido he has only really studied Isshinryu. Many years he had only himself to train out in his yard or something.

And to be honest he was one of the most knowledgable (deep thinking) martial artists that I have ever met. On top of that he was one of the must humble and friendly instructors that I have met as well. Again I believe this came from his training and his love for sharing the marrtial arts to whomever was interested.

My path has been different due to my moving around (work) and finding another system(s) that interested me. However ultimately I think you can come to the same point only you get there differently.

Mark

 

[MJS]

If you are already a BB in one style, it should be pretty easy for you to adapt to the next one you choose to study, providing it is along the same lines. If you do Tang Soo Do, and then start TKD, the kicks are gonna be pretty similar. Now, if you go from a standing art to a grappling art, well then of course, this will be different.

As long as you are able to have an understanding of each art, then why not study more than one. It will make you a more well rounded fighter!

MJS

 

[twinkletoes]

I think people are already keying in on the important factor:

it depends how "similar" "similar" is.

If you learn 2 styles in which the basics are the same (i.e. 2 different but closely related schools of karate) you will probably learn them very quickly. The 2nd one will be a snap.

If you learn 2 unrelated styles (Kenpo and BJJ) it will about as much time as anyone else to become proficient at the 2nd style, with maybe a little time reduction because you are motivated, dedicated, and accustomed to being a student, and how the whole learning process goes.

If you learn 2 complementary styles (Arnis and anything, really) it could even move more quickly. By complimentary I mean that the concepts are similar, the basics are not contradictory, and there is little overlap otherwise. I know someone who got black belts in Kenpo and Arnis within 5 years (at a Kenpo school where the average is 8-10). And this is an adult who had never studied before. Wow!

If you learn 2 contradictory styles you are in trouble. By this I mean 2 styles where the basic movements or concepts are at odds. For example, if you were learning Karate and TKD, and your Karate sensei wanted to see your side kick look like this, and your TKD instructor wanted it to look like that. This would drive the average person nuts, and it's why crosstraining is often not suggested until the person has a firm foundation in 1 art.

~TT

 

[A.R.K.]

Shuri Te hit on a good point..

But I think the biggest difference is the amount of grappling a school does. These skills are completely foreign to those that don't practice them, and many, many schools practice little or no grappling.

A fellow Deputy has a daughter in TKD that is very good in the sport version. And I mean GOOD! He is thinking of building an addition to his house for all of her trophies and such. She is about 16 yoa.

He brought her to our training one day because we're friends and he knows what I teach. That particular day we were performing a simple head takedown that's been affectionately dubbed 'the Linda Blair' I demostrated the technique and her eyes got as big as saucer dishes and she choked out a meek 'I have to put my hands on someone'? The concept of actual grappling was so foreign because of the sport tippy-tap mind set. She learned what I hope was a valuable lesson that day, and I did as well.

:asian:

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Shuri Te hit on a good point..



A fellow Deputy has a daughter in TKD that is very good in the sport version. And I mean GOOD! He is thinking of building an addition to his house for all of her trophies and such. She is about 16 yoa.

He brought her to our training one day because we're friends and he knows what I teach. That particular day we were performing a simple head takedown that's been affectionately dubbed 'the Linda Blair' I demostrated the technique and her eyes got as big as saucer dishes and she choked out a meek 'I have to put my hands on someone'? The concept of actual grappling was so foreign because of the sport tippy-tap mind set. She learned what I hope was a valuable lesson that day, and I did as well.

:asian:

I've seen many people do things very similar to this girl. They seem so timid and afraid to apply a choke or make some light contact when doing SD. The sad thing is, is that these people walk around with this false confidence that they will actually be able to defend themselves in a real situation. They're going to be in for a big surprise. You will fight like you train!

Mike

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Was reading an article on jiujitsu.net I believe. The article was intitled Training with legitmated BJJ instructor. The story starts out how the Brazilians are worried that us American's will take their art and start calling it something else. (Side note which is what I do already since I have no Brazilian Blood in me) Any way the article goes on say this what the Brazilian did to the Japanese. Studying Judo or jujutsu and then decided to call it BJJ. I thought that was kind of funny. It goes on about how some people don't train very long in BJJ and start up there own style of Martial arts. It also talked about how Carlos SR. possible trained in Japanese Jujutsu for 2 years or less. So basic understanding of the story, is the things that the Gracie's and Brazilian Jujutsu are complaining about are some of the same things they did. Makes you think
Bob:asian:

 

[twinkletoes]

Somebody wrote something similar once, but they touched upon the reasons that the Gracies had such good circumstances for developing their own art. These included:

-There are so very many family members who trained (even 5 brothers in the early days) which meant there was always someone to train with or practice with.

-Their distance from the Japanese customs and reverance for the art's tradition made it easy for them to modify or discard techniques that proved ineffective, because they didn't feel any emotional attachment to the "traditional way."

-They did all this within a society that welcomed and encouraged the development, through its constant supply of individuals who would come to their school and test them.

These and other factors contributed highly to their ability to develop and refine techniques.

Now, an interesting idea would be this: Certainly BJJ is substantially changed from Judo and Japanese Jiu-jitsu; how much change would an American have to introduce before his new study was different enough that it was no longer BJJ? (We may have to take this up on another forum....)

~TT

 

[Mark Lynn]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
.....Studying Judo or jujutsu and then decided to call it BJJ. I thought that was kind of funny. It goes on about how some people don't train very long in BJJ and start up there own style of Martial arts. It also talked about how Carlos SR. possible trained in Japanese Jujutsu for 2 years or less. So basic understanding of the story, is the things that the Gracie's and Brazilian Jujutsu are complaining about are some of the same things they did. Makes you think
Bob:asian:

Not studying BJJ or really knowledgable about the system, except for what little I read back in the early 90's about it. I thought that the family trained privately with a japanese instructor. Helio Gracie I think was the smallest one of the sons to take it, yet it was he (and his sons) who eventually spread the art that people know today.

I think Helio due to his smaller size made the japanese jujitsu art work for him by having to learn the art's principles and then apply them to his body size and structure. Then of course he learned how to really apply the art and make it his own different from what he learned by applying the art in competitions and later from the challanges at their school.

And I think that is the key learning the art/system so well that you make it your own. This is different than studying a multitude of different arts and only learning the basics and then creating your own system.

Mark

 

[twinkletoes]

Helio's older brother Carlos (Sr.) was the only one to train with Mitsuo Maeda. Carlos, in turn, taught all his younger brothers except for Helio, who was considered too sickly to participate. The story goes that one day it was time to teach class and no other brother could be found, so Helio went out on the mat and taught an extremely technical lesson, just from watching his brothers over time. From then on, he became the real technician of the bunch. It is his sons who are the most well known in the family.

Helio is generally credited with the most advances in the system, due (as you mention) to his necessity for leverage with his small frame.

Sources disagree, but many people say that Carlos studied for less than a full year under Maeda, and that Maeda was often abroad during this period. This would place even more of the development in the hands of 2 generations of Gracies.

And since we're talking rank, Carlos received his black belt, and in turn, ranked his brothers. I'm sure some would say that there is no precedent for the brothers to be high ranking black belts now (with Helio ranked at 10th) if they none of them ever received higher than shodan under their Japanese mentor (and that was only Carlos). On the other hand, I can think of few contemporary Martial Artists who could deserve it less.

Certainly gives you a fresh look at the idea of lineage (and rank), and how absurd the idea can be.

~TT

 

[Mark Lynn]

A similar story is told about sensei Funokoshi's wife in Funokoshi's book Karate Do my way of Life. [ Forgive any spelling errors please]. How his wife use to watch class from the roof of their house while he taught in the court yard/yard during the night. One day he was late and the student(s) showed up and she taught the class till he got there.

 

[twinkletoes]

That's awesome. I have not heard that one before.

~TT

 

[MichiganTKD]

First, I don't believe at all in training in two or more arts until you have attained 4th Dan in at least one. Practicing one style seriously consumes a great deal of your physical and mental energy. And now you want to try two? Not to say that having an understanding of elements of other styles after BB isn't helpful. It is, but it is your Instructor's job to show you these elements.

Second, I would not recommend learning another style similar to your main style (i.e. Tae Kwon Do to Tang Soo Do or Karate). Why? Because when you learn TKD or TSD or Shotokan you are training your body to move, twist, punch, kick, block, and think a certain way. A kick is NOt a kick, and a block is NOT a block regardless of where you learn it. Each style is unique. Pick one style's approach to technique, but stay with that style. Otherwise, your body will be forced to learn two different, and not usually complimentary, versions of technique. Additionally, if you are studying a similar style, you will always be comparing what they do with what you are used to doing.

Third, new style new rank. No exceptions. It doesn't matter if you are a Master Instructor in Tae Kwon Do. You want to start Kenpo, TSD, or Shotokan? Put on your new white belt and leave your attitude and ego at the door. I began aikido training previously because I had reached 4th Dan in TKD and wanted to try something new. TKD is the only striking art I want to practice, so I decided to try a soft style to avoid any confusion.

These guys who claim black belts in 3 or more arts make me laugh. You are only fooling yourself. How good are they really going to be?

 

[MJS]

These guys who claim black belts in 3 or more arts make me laugh. You are only fooling yourself. How good are they really going to be?

I wouldnt fool yourself into thinking that they are not going to be good. I have a 3rd black in Kenpo, and am close to getting my black in Arnis. I'd say that my skills in both are very good!! I also train under someone who has mult. rankings. He has produced many excellent fighters, and his skill level far surpasses many others that I have seen.

Mike

 

[MichiganTKD]

Something I have noticed is a tendency, often demonstrated on various Instructor's web sites, to claim:
1. 9th Dan in Tae Kwon Do
2. 7th Dan in Hapkido
3. 7th Dan in Kendo
4. 6th Dan in Kung Fu
5. 6th Dan in Judo
Yada Yada Yada... You get the idea.

9th Dan in TKD (TSD, Shotokan etc.) means you have dedicated your life to the practice, teaching, and development of your Art. By definition, there aren't going to be very many 9th, 7th, or 6th Dans. How can you dedicate your life to Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Kendo, Kung Fu, AND whatever other style you claim to practice.

Second, how would you have time to practice all those even if you wanted to? 9th Dan requires about 40 years of your life, 7th Dan about 30, 6th Dan about 25. Unless you're going to live to be 500 years old, it cannot be done. Not well anyway. Doesn't matter whether you're American or Korean. A fake's a fake.

 

[MJS]

Michigan TKD- Check your pvt. messages.

Mike

 

[terryl965]

Well he we are again first off, there are so many honorary black belts that are giving to those that help preserve the art from other organizations, also you can study more than one art if you first achieve a high level from one art,second most schools will give you your rank while you train in there style which means you hold multiple black belts. Not alway what you know but who you know. God Bless America

 

[Mark Lynn]

First, I don't believe at all in training in two or more arts until you have attained 4th Dan in at least one. Practicing one style seriously consumes a great deal of your physical and mental energy. And now you want to try two? Not to say that having an understanding of elements of other styles after BB isn't helpful. It is, but it is your Instructor's job to show you these elements.

Second, I would not recommend learning another style similar to your main style (i.e. Tae Kwon Do to Tang Soo Do or Karate). Why? Because when you learn TKD or TSD or Shotokan you are training your body to move, twist, punch, kick, block, and think a certain way. A kick is NOt a kick, and a block is NOT a block regardless of where you learn it. Each style is unique. Pick one style's approach to technique, but stay with that style. Otherwise, your body will be forced to learn two different, and not usually complimentary, versions of technique. Additionally, if you are studying a similar style, you will always be comparing what they do with what you are used to doing.

Third, new style new rank. No exceptions. It doesn't matter if you are a Master Instructor in Tae Kwon Do. You want to start Kenpo, TSD, or Shotokan? Put on your new white belt and leave your attitude and ego at the door. I began aikido training previously because I had reached 4th Dan in TKD and wanted to try something new. TKD is the only striking art I want to practice, so I decided to try a soft style to avoid any confusion.

These guys who claim black belts in 3 or more arts make me laugh. You are only fooling yourself. How good are they really going to be?

Michigan TKD
I agree with probably the spirit of your post but not your points. In your more recent post you (question) reference the high ranking BB grades that some teachers have and coming from that angle is why I say I agree probably with you in the spirit of your post. But I'd like to point out what I disagree with in this post.

Why 4th dan? I understand having a solid foundation in a primary art first (and I agree) however is 4th dan the majic number? In some systems it takes 2-3 years to get 1st Dan others like under my instructor it took me 7 years. It was about 7-8 years later that I earned 2nd. I think I had a firm foundation in one system. However during this time I moved (relocated to different cities) 3X and where I went I found a good school but not nessecarily the style I was taking, but I always practiced my katas and techniques from my original teacher.

A kick is not a kick and punch is not a punch and a block is not a block etc. etc. Again I agree to a point that there is a higher level of learning to each of these moves but to the basic beginner and in fact to many instructors thats all they are and all they ever will be. After moving (relocating) and traveling around to check out other schools you might be surprised how many people learned a technique one way and the standard application that this move in this form is a block (insert what ever technique you want) and thats it. Then they pass that down to their students and they become instructors and they pass it down and so on. Pretty soon that is the gospell truth that is a block and only a block. The high ranking instructor might not know any other interpretation.

In regards to the styles unique way of moving etc. etc. yeah I agree, but disagree on your point. I have studied American versions of TKD and Wa do ryu (Japanese karate) and I have trained with and worked out with people of Korean TKD, Japanese, and Okinawan karate styles and I don't see a huge difference between many techniques. Some but not much between the core basic techniques. However there is a bigger difference between say Akido and TKD (do I block or do I blend with the person?). You are right about different fighting stratagies (do I block or do I throw?) though. I now study the FMA and one of the styles that I study is Modern Arnis. GM Remy Presas was fantastic with his locking skills, you touch the man and you were locked down (if he wanted), anyway I also for a time studied Kali under an instructor in the JKD Inosanto blend system. So I went to several of Guro Inosanto's seminars where the emphasis was more on striking. Now I might get the same response (as in the from of a block,) but in MA I'd learn to lock and in JKD I'd hit. I always wondered why someone as great as Bruce Lee wouldn't lock if GM Remy did it so effortlessly, I mean I had never seen Guro Inosanto teach the locking techniques to these types of blocks. Till on a video in a interview Guro Inosanto made a comment about how Bruce was getting into finger locks and he could lock people, but Guro Inosanto didn't feel he had the speed so he didn't teach it.

Starting out as a white belt. Again I agree but in two different times when I came into a school the head instructor had me wear my earned rank, once as a brown belt and once as a black belt. In fact the one instructor had me remove my white belt and put on my black.

Got to head to work
Mark

please forgive any and all speeling errors it's early, I'm late for work, and my hand kept falling asleep.

 

[marshallbd]

Well, you probably could argue that you could fly through material and get your belt quicker than a total newbie. However, would you want to?

We get people who are Black belts in other styles that come in to take Kenpo from our school from time to time. We tell them all the same thing: you will pick the material up quicker than someone who has had no training, but it will still take a fair amount of time to get to Black in this style.

It's just the way it works out. If you want to truly train in the art, you should be willing to put in the time to get quality out of it, not just a new Black rank.

Just my opinion.

Peace--

I agree 100%!!!! I have no black ranking in any style but someday I will....I am willing to wait and earn it properly and learn everything I can to make the art I study a part of me and me a part of it....2 years or 20 years down the road....it doesn't matter to me....it's going to be the journey that keeps me there....life is experience/experience is life!!! :asian:

 

[Shinzu]

true. just because you have leaned the techniques, it doesn't mean you have learned the art. each is different and has its' own history. thus it should be treated with individual respect. it's not a race, it's a way of life.

:asian: