Martial Artists With Most Black Belt

[Bill Mattocks]

One could spend a lifetime on one style, I never understood the motivation to jump around. But then, it's not me or my choices, people do what they think is best for their own development.

There are many styles I'm keenly interested in but I want to stay contained to the few things I grew up with ... and maybe ad Kenpo, because that just makes 4. LOL.

I'm not interested in 'jumping around' or in collecting belts - due to my late-in-life start, I won't even earn my first black belt until I'm well into my 50's anyway. But I know that my style (Isshin-Ryu) does not have a particularly strong ground game, and I am very poor at falling properly as well, so I would like to supplement my training with some formal training in Judo at some point, probably in the next year or so. As you said, it's more for my development, I'm not interested in pursuing a belt in Judo; I just want to learn some of those skills, which I see as valuable.

 

[dancingalone]

Yeah, I dislike that interpretation, Jay, although I understand lots of schools consider the initial black belt to be no big deal at all. "Now you're ready to really learn." "A black belt is an advanced beginner."

Seems a bit too New Age for me, you know? I've promoted 3 black belts in my life. All of them can scrape in a fight and all of them have fight ending power in their strikes.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Yeah, I dislike that interpretation, Jay, although I understand lots of schools consider the initial black belt to be no big deal at all. "Now you're ready to really learn." "A black belt is an advanced beginner."

Seems a bit too New Age for me, you know? I've promoted 3 black belts in my life. All of them can scrape in a fight and all of them have fight ending power in their strikes.

I dunno. I realize a typical well-trained black belt is perfectly capable of defending themselves, but it seems to me (as a green belt) that there is still a monstrous amount to learn and huge personal understanding to be applied. The difference between the abilities of our black belts from 1st Dan to 8th is staggering. While I've sparred with 1st dans and not been beaten up too badly, from 3rd on they can take me apart in a variety of ways, at their leisure, using whatever technique they seem to enjoy the most that particular day. It's a lesson in humility. I really do think BB is the beginning, not the end. Doesn't seem New Age-y to me, at least.

 

[dancingalone]

I dunno. I realize a typical well-trained black belt is perfectly capable of defending themselves, but it seems to me (as a green belt) that there is still a monstrous amount to learn and huge personal understanding to be applied. The difference between the abilities of our black belts from 1st Dan to 8th is staggering. While I've sparred with 1st dans and not been beaten up too badly, from 3rd on they can take me apart in a variety of ways, at their leisure, using whatever technique they seem to enjoy the most that particular day. It's a lesson in humility. I really do think BB is the beginning, not the end. Doesn't seem New Age-y to me, at least.

It depends on the application. Sure, a 4th dan should be noticeably better than a first dan, even to a layman, but I think a 1st dan still needs to have some obvious and useful skill and EFFECTIVENESS. To me it's a cop-out to say "Oh, he's just an advanced beginner".

Not in my expectations. Not in my school.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It depends on the application. Sure, a 4th dan should be noticeably better than a first dan, even to a layman, but I think a 1st dan still needs to have some obvious and useful skill and EFFECTIVENESS. To me it's a cop-out to say "Oh, he's just an advanced beginner".

Not in my expectations. Not in my school.

A 21 year old is an adult. But tell me how 'adult' most of them are? Yes, a black belt has reached a particular level of mastery of the forms or whatever is required of their particular art. But to me, they're masters to the same extend that a 21-year-old is a fully-fledged adult, capable of making good decisions and acting like one would expect of most 40-year-olds. They just don't, for the most part. It will come with time, though.

 

[dancingalone]

A 21 year old is an adult. But tell me how 'adult' most of them are? Yes, a black belt has reached a particular level of mastery of the forms or whatever is required of their particular art. But to me, they're masters to the same extend that a 21-year-old is a fully-fledged adult, capable of making good decisions and acting like one would expect of most 40-year-olds. They just don't, for the most part. It will come with time, though.

I'm not sure your analogy really fits. Human adulthood is a culmination of physical, mental, and developmental maturity. Surely that's way more complex than teaching someone how to apply the basics of a fighting system in order to use it against a live, moving opponent. There's plenty of juvenile amateur boxers who can spar effectively in the ring. It's not too much of a leap to predict they would have some success in a fight for real.

In my system, it takes roughly 5 years to reach shodan. Lots of other schools seem to use the same time benchmark, but I'm quite serious about proficiency testing to make sure the students are deserving of each rank increment. I guess the rhetorical question I would have is why award a black belt to an 'advanced beginner'? Why not wait until the subject has effectiveness too?

 

[FearlessFreep]

It depends on the application. Sure, a 4th dan should be noticeably better than a first dan, even to a layman, but I think a 1st dan still needs to have some obvious and useful skill and EFFECTIVENESS. To me it's a cop-out to say "Oh, he's just an advanced beginner".

Not in my expectations. Not in my school.

I think the "advanced beginner" verbage is mostly a matter of perspective. Like someone with a four year degree in Chemistry; they know a *lot* more than the guy on the street and can utilize it effectively and practically, but there is still much to learn and much to encounter in the practical use of that expertise. So it's just sorta a convenient line that illustrates a concept and provides a bit of humility; you are still a beginner *in the art* but not really a beginner compared to the average lay-person, so to speak.

 

[dancingalone]

I think the "advanced beginner" verbage is mostly a matter of perspective. Like someone with a four year degree in Chemistry; they know a *lot* more than the guy on the street and can utilize it effectively and practically, but there is still much to learn and much to encounter in the practical use of that expertise. So it's just sorta a convenient line that illustrates a concept and provides a bit of humility; you are still a beginner *in the art* but not really a beginner compared to the average lay-person, so to speak.

And that's the nuance I HOPE for. That's totally fine in my book, even though I think it's an empty banality.

Where I would have a problem with it is when the substance follows the words and we have black belts out there who perhaps would be better off still wearing a kyu rank.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm not sure your analogy really fits. Human adulthood is a culmination of physical, mental, and developmental maturity. Surely that's way more complex than teaching someone how to apply the basics of a fighting system in order to use it against a live, moving opponent. There's plenty of juvenile amateur boxers who can spar effectively in the ring. It's not too much of a leap to predict they would have some success in a fight for real.

I'm sure they would 'have some success' in a real fight - I'm not saying they wouldn't. I am saying, however, that a 1st dan BB is very much a 21-year-old adult - all the tools, all the skills, but not yet a complete person in terms of personality, ability to use their skills, and the wisdom to know when / how and what skills to use at what time.

I think it's perfectly apt to refer to a newly-minted BB as a learner and not a master. There's just so much difference between a 1st and an 8th (for example), it's like they're two different complete martial arts, even if they are BB's in the same discipline.

I think earning a BB is saying you've paid your dues and proven that you can stick with it. Now you can start the real learning. Like learning your alphabet and how to spell - now you can get to work on that novel.

In my system, it takes roughly 5 years to reach shodan. Lots of other schools seem to use the same time benchmark, but I'm quite serious about proficiency testing to make sure the students are deserving of each rank increment. I guess the rhetorical question I would have is why award a black belt to an 'advanced beginner'? Why not wait until the subject has effectiveness too?

I think you may just be hung up on the word 'beginner'. In other words, our disagreement may be down to semantics.

Look at it this way - a graduate of one school is a beginner at another. I graduated from grade school, jr high, high school, and then college. Every time I did, I immediately became a beginner at the next level. If I went on to post-graduate study, I'd be a beginner at masters and then perhaps phd level. Every gateway has a beginning. BB is another gateway. It's a beginning. That's not to denigrate the work they've already done, it's an acknowledgment that earning a BB represents moving on to another plane of study.

 

[searcher]

I'm not interested in 'jumping around' or in collecting belts - due to my late-in-life start, I won't even earn my first black belt until I'm well into my 50's anyway. But I know that my style (Isshin-Ryu) does not have a particularly strong ground game, and I am very poor at falling properly as well, so I would like to supplement my training with some formal training in Judo at some point, probably in the next year or so. As you said, it's more for my development, I'm not interested in pursuing a belt in Judo; I just want to learn some of those skills, which I see as valuable.

Great post Bill!!! That is the reason why I encourage my students to go train in other styles and with other instructors. Coming up throught the ranks, I actively sought out people to help in areas I felt that I lacked skill. My punching was not great, so I took up boxing and Kenpo. My kickign was lacking, so I took up TKD. Though my ground game is alright, I felt the need to get some help with it, so I took up GJJ(since their are no BJJ schools within an hour of my house).

It should always be about making ourselves better and not for the sake of having another belt to hang on the wall.

 

[dancingalone]

I think you may just be hung up on the word 'beginner'. In other words, our disagreement may be down to semantics.

Look at it this way - a graduate of one school is a beginner at another. I graduated from grade school, jr high, high school, and then college. Every time I did, I immediately became a beginner at the next level. If I went on to post-graduate study, I'd be a beginner at masters and then perhaps phd level. Every gateway has a beginning. BB is another gateway. It's a beginning. That's not to denigrate the work they've already done, it's an acknowledgment that earning a BB represents moving on to another plane of study.

Granted. It's ALL relative. Someone is always MORE knowledgeable or skilled.

My stance is simply that the black belt should be more of a benchmark that what Jay alluded to in his first post.

My understanding for any art is that Black Belt is just the beginning. It means you have a basic understanding of the mechanics of the physical portions of the art. So it seems to me that unless you get fairly beyond that level, you really only sorta know the art anyway.

I don't find any criteria for effectiveness in there, hence my response about not liking the "beginner" interpretation. To reiterate, in my book, even a shodan should be effective, able to project force instinctively, able to apply the concepts of the system in a crude fashion.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Granted. It's ALL relative. Someone is always MORE knowledgeable or skilled.

My stance is simply that the black belt should be more of a benchmark that what Jay alluded to in his first post.

I don't find any criteria for effectiveness in there, hence my response about not liking the "beginner" interpretation. To reiterate, in my book, even a shodan should be effective, able to project force instinctively, able to apply the concepts of the system in a crude fashion.

Well, then, I think we agree. A black belt should of course be proficient in their art. I just think that proficiency covers such a wide-range of territory that is is appropriate to refer to a newly-minted BB as a 'beginner'; just in a new realm that starts with proficiency and never ends.

 

[MJS]

6th Dan in Chito-ryu, 5th Dan in Kobudo, 3rd Dan in Isshinryu, blue belt in EPAK(started over last year after a 20 year absence in the style). I trained in TKD until last year, when my instructor passed away. I only keep up with the Hyungs now and I do not actively work towards rank in it anymore. The Ch'ang H'on forms were very quick to pick up, as they had a very Karate-esque feel to them. Easy to pick up, forever to get right.

It was the same for me when I made my transition from Parker to Tracy. The forms and techs. at my current school, are so similar to what I was doing before, it was very easy for me to pick things up. IMO, I dont see anything wrong with what you're doing.

I am also pursuing rank in Gracie Jiujitsu(yes, via the video system) in addition to my training in EPAK. Since the systems are so different, they don't interfere with the picking up of techniques. People can say what they want about video training and testing, but the material is amazing in its layout and usefulness.

I've heard good and bad things about this, if its the same thing that I'm thinking of, ie: Gracie University. I have my own thoughts on dvd/video learning, but thats another thread and has been beat to death. However, if its working for you, thats great. I'm a big fan of the ground game, and I think that its very important for everyone to have those tools in their box. Good luck with it.

 

[MJS]

I am almost reluctant to respond to this because of the flack, flaming, etc, I potentially see coming my way, but...

I studied Judo for 10 years as a white belt before taking my first test (started at 8 years of age (the day after I turned 8). Since then I have reached 5th Dan in Judo. At the age of 10 my Judo Sensei started me in Aikido and Kendo as part of my daily training. I have reached 8th Dan in Aikido, and was named Head of Family (10th Dan) in Kendo at the death of my Sensei, who was Head of Family, two years ago this coming December. I have trained in all three all my life, pretty much actively, since I started in them. (There were times in the Military where I was unable to train (9 months in a foreign country, etc.) When in Korea I added Tang Soo Do, which I have worked up to 3rd Dan (Blue Belt (with black stripe) in that style), and Hapkido, which I worked up to 3rd Dan. I continue to study these arts as well. (At least when I can with those that are able to work with me on growing in them.)

I practice all these arts daily, individually, then in a mixed form I have been working on over the past 12+ years...

These ranks have taken a lot of time in training, practice, and teaching to achieve, and are still just a beginning to me....

Happy Training...

No flak from me. I dont see anything wrong with this post.

 

[Omar B]

I'm not interested in 'jumping around' or in collecting belts - due to my late-in-life start, I won't even earn my first black belt until I'm well into my 50's anyway. But I know that my style (Isshin-Ryu) does not have a particularly strong ground game, and I am very poor at falling properly as well, so I would like to supplement my training with some formal training in Judo at some point, probably in the next year or so. As you said, it's more for my development, I'm not interested in pursuing a belt in Judo; I just want to learn some of those skills, which I see as valuable.

I totally understand what you are saying Bill. My Seido Hanshi also holds a high rank in Judo and after karate on a Saturday he teaches those willing to hang out for another 2 hours judo. So I never saw it as a different system because of the say the Kyokushin and it's derivatives (such as Seido) dovetails with judo quite well.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I don't know, I am pretty sure my wife has about 30-40 black belts in her closet... probably another 30 other various colored belts as well..
Every time I bring it up I am informed that they are indeed quite different, quite necessary, and all have very specific purposes. Apparantly that is also the reason she has 30-40 purses, and a hundred or so shoes...
But wait this is a different conversation isnt it?
Sorry...

BTW I do not see why a person can not have multiple black belts in many arts, seriously in my most serious training regiments I was doing martial arts over 8 hours a day... I was only doing two martial arts, but I do not see why a person could not easily get a dozen or so black belts over a ten to twenty year time period....

I fully expect to get my a black Belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in approximately another 2 years or less, which will bring my grand total of black belts up to...... two.. and I have been training for 17 years now... of course we don't have black belts for Boxing, or Muay Thai, which I spent alot of time doing... but ya even though I only have two, I could easily see myself having split my time and earned several more if that had been my goal.. its all about dedication and time...

 

[dbell]

I'm sure they would 'have some success' in a real fight - I'm not saying they wouldn't. I am saying, however, that a 1st dan BB is very much a 21-year-old adult - all the tools, all the skills, but not yet a complete person in terms of personality, ability to use their skills, and the wisdom to know when / how and what skills to use at what time.

I think it's perfectly apt to refer to a newly-minted BB as a learner and not a master. There's just so much difference between a 1st and an 8th (for example), it's like they're two different complete martial arts, even if they are BB's in the same discipline.

While I would not call newly minted BB a beginner, I would consider him/her a learner, as I would an 8th or 9th or 10th Dan. The later may have the title Master given to them by some, including themselves, but they are still learning what they teach.

I think earning a BB is saying you've paid your dues and proven that you can stick with it. Now you can start the real learning. Like learning your alphabet and how to spell - now you can get to work on that novel.

I would hope that the real learning began at 10th Kyu or equivalent within the style! Saying it begins as BB is bogus to me. In most arts, from 1st Dan to 3rd Dan, while you still learn new things, most of your training now is getting deeper into what you have already been taught, and working with teaching others. From 3rd Dan on (in most "traditional" (and I use that term loosely!) systems), you are working on teaching and getting even deeper into what you have learned.

Look at it this way - a graduate of one school is a beginner at another. I graduated from grade school, jr high, high school, and then college. Every time I did, I immediately became a beginner at the next level. If I went on to post-graduate study, I'd be a beginner at masters and then perhaps phd level. Every gateway has a beginning. BB is another gateway. It's a beginning. That's not to denigrate the work they've already done, it's an acknowledgment that earning a BB represents moving on to another plane of study.

I content that the plane of study should be the same through out your training in martial arts, initially in new things, then in looking deeper and deeper into those things you have learned, yourself and your opponents...

 

[James Kovacich]

This is how it wa when I was in several Japanese based arts under my brother-in-law.

10th kyu to 5th kyu - beginner rank
4th kyu to 1st kyu - intermediate rank
1st BB - 1st advanced rank or beginning of advanced training/rank

 

[Cirdan]

If you are 1. Dan in a double digit number of styles you seriously need to reconcider why you train.. just my opinion.

Nothing wrong with being black belt in several styles, most people who train for decades cross train at some opint. A mid-to high ranked BB in his or her primary style(s) might have picked up a low rank BB or two along the way.

Noticed a guy who attempted to boost his status on his web page some time ago. He held high rank in two striking styles, plus some low ranks including Kobudo. Interestingly he concidered each weapon (Bo, Sai, Tonfa, Nunchaku etc) to be a separate art so he could claim a lot of belts. Not exactly wrong I guess but.. well

 

[bowser666]

Double Post , sorry.