Loyalty

[Boomer]

I'm beginning to wonder how much loyalty is owed to an instructor. Or to a student. Recent events have unfolded in a peculiar way that leave me wondering.
I always thought of loyalty to Sensei as being of the utmost importance. I know that our sensei's loyalty to his students is unwavering. That's why it's so strange to me when I see students just turn their back on him. We have students that drive 60+ miles from college, work, etc, just to train with him because he actually cares about them and he's a fantastic instructor.
Sensei invested a ton of time into this particular student, teaching him things beyond his belt ranking because the student showed promise, and Sensei considered him a friend. It's sad that the student can just think of that as nothing and leave with an email note...not even giving the common courtesy of a phone call or meeting in person... and joining a McDojo across town. It'd be different, I guess, if Sensei didn't have a personal relationship with this fellow.
It may seem like venting to some, but I really am struggling to understand this type of behavior. Did I just come up in a different time when loyalty to your instructor meant something? Or do I expect too much of people?

 

[Tez3]

You've actually made me feel much better! I thought I was the only one who felt this way, that loyalty was honourable. We had a guy come to us a few years back now who wanted to get into the UK MMA scene. My instructor taught him the skills needed, got him fights, took him to shows all over the country,put him up at his parents house, arranged for him to train in Thailand at a top Muay Thai camp (all he had to pay for was his flight) etc etc then after four years this fighterm without telling our instructor, went off to another management. We found out on an MMA forum.
My instructor shrugged it off though I could tell he was hurt but I was furious for him. After everything that was done for him he just went off and that to me was so disloyal and ungrateful. Like you I can't understand why someone would do this, I don't think you are being old fashioned at all.
I suppose there is karma ar work though, the fighter didn't prosper with his new management and is now injured.....my instructor feels sorry for him and has him back as the boxing coach. I'm still furious with him though, guess my instructor is a better person than I am!

 

[Ronin Moose]

Well, I think you are expecting too much from people, which almost always leads to dissapointment. It sounds like you both, as many of us, have enough INTEGRITY to never consider such a shallow act, and to feel appropriatley angry or hurt when these jerks affect someone we care about. I'd like to think I haven't lived this long by being stupid, but I AM constantly dissapointed in the actions of others. The best we can do is to keep our own level of the right things in life (including deserved loyalty, intergrity, service to those we care for, etc) where we can try to be the example. I know the old Golden Rule may seem corny, but I'm a believer.

Do something special for your sensei as a group - maybe an informal dinner after class or something easy, but that will let him be reminded of the many that DO CARE for him. Best regards.....

-GARRY

 

[Hand Sword]

Call me old fashioned as well. Loyalty, which is apart of honor, is in my opinion a very important thing, and seems to be lacking in the world. One should be free to study what they want also, without feeling trapped or bad about it. Just do things the right way, and don't burn bridges.

 

[Shaderon]

I am big one for loyalty, I always have been and I am very loyal to my instructor and to me that goes hand in hand with trust... in fact if the guy told me I could walk though fire I'd do it. There are a few people in our classes that don't have the same loyalty and it really saddens me as they don't seem to do as well and have the same results. If someone is putting that much effort into trying to make you a fighter that they can be proud of, the least you can do is offer your loyalty and trust in return.

 

[tshadowchaser]

being loyal to ones instructor is a person thing. Some people are devoted to their instructor other are there only to get what they can in knowledge and rank before they go elsewhere or start their own system.
I hitchhiked 100 miles each way to visit and study with my instructor ( back in the 70's) until I could move to the town he lived in. When I left the school to travel around the USA I wore the school patch proudly and always said he was my instructor. Yes I studied with other people and other systems over the years but that Man will always be my instructor. When I left the organization he was in I still called him my instructor and we where still friends and the student/instructor relationship never wavered.
Today I feel that more students than not care little for whom they study with but only want rank and prestige and recognition of themselves.

 

[Shuto]

OK, here's a question. Is the loyalty being described here affected by the business enterprise that some training has become? If your teacher is making their living off of the fees paid by the students for training, does this change the sense of obligation as opposed to training that is offered freely?

In my mind, it does. I feel no sense of loyalty to my college. It provided me with an education that has affected my life but they did this because I paid them. I admire, respect, and am indebted to certain instructors who had a major impact on my life due to their teaching skills and philosophies, but that is not automatically given them simply due to the teacher/student relationship. It's something that they've earned. Shouldn't a MA teacher also have to earn one's loyalty?

 

[qi-tah]

Sensei invested a ton of time into this particular student, teaching him things beyond his belt ranking because the student showed promise, and Sensei considered him a friend. It's sad that the student can just think of that as nothing and leave with an email note...not even giving the common courtesy of a phone call or meeting in person... and joining a McDojo across town. It'd be different, I guess, if Sensei didn't have a personal relationship with this fellow.

That's really wrong... you got in one when you said that this student was lacking in common courtesy. Even if the trust and respect has gone (as sadly it does occasionally), the teacher deserves to be told to their face about the students descision to move on. It's just good manners.

 

[jks9199]

Loyalty is important; my teacher has shared his time and knowledge with me. I, in turn, have given him my best effort and stayed with him. I try to pass on what he taught me faithfully.

But, it's also important to recognize that there are two sides to every "disloyal student" story. It's very possible that something happened, for example, between the instructor and favored student that started the thread which the poster is unaware of -- and maybe even which the teacher is unaware of.

 

[stone_dragone]

Loyalty is of the utmost importance in any relationship, be it a friendship, a romantic love or a student-teacher relationship. I agree with jks, however, in that there may be more to the situation than meets the eye.

I don't know what would cause a student to not even give his instructor the common courtesey of a face-to-face head's up about the coming change, but that's just how I do buisness. I try not to project my values onto other people (it is hard sometimes, though).

 

[MJS]

I've seen alot on here lately regarding loyalty and it made me wonder...what does loyalty consist of and how far do we take it? Sure, I've left schools, but I've always done my best to keep that bridge in tact. I've ran into past instructors on the street, stopped and chatted with them and I've even stopped by the school to chat. Do I train there? Nope, but I still maintain a friendship.

I don't speak ill of my currect teacher, I don't speak ill of the school or others there. I respect his teaching. I support the school when they have seminars. I pay my dues every month. I've hung out with many of my instructors outside of the school as well.

However, reading some posts through out, and not necessarily in this thread, but it seems almost as if some people let their instructor control every move they make. "I can't cross train because my instructor, Master, etc. won't like it." So if someone went and did this anyways, is it not being loyal? "I can't ask a question of something because he won't like it." Is this Martial Art training or a cult?

I don't know...maybe its because I don't understand the 'deeper' meaning of it all and don't come from a strict, traditional art, but seems to me a line has to be drawn somewhere.

Mike

 

[kidswarrior]

The parallel that comes to mind is of the time when I was first entering the boxing world in the late 60s. I was fortunate to 'find' a coach/manager who was old school and wouldn't throw me into fights or even sparring with the wrong guys before I was ready. If he told me to get up at 4 AM and do road work, I did it. Then I worked all day, before driving 50 miles to meet him after work at 7 or whenever he could get to the gym. He got pretty sick and I went into the service before my 'career' went too far, but in that brief time together we both saw a lot of guys dumping the manager that gave them their starts for someone/some team that was glitzier. I think this me-first attitude has pretty much taken over boxing, and I stopped being a fan years ago because of all the posturing, as well as the generally lower skill level (and the two may be related: common theme is the fighter thinking he has all the answers).

Red and I were both making an investment and taking a chance on each other. I knew this, appreciated it, and would have gone down with the ship with him, if my career had lasted (and I'd really had the talent). He was the real deal--you could feel the power in his left hook even when he was just easing it out there, and yet he was willing to teach me. I didn't pay him a dime, and he didn't expect it. What's the MA application today? Not sure, but it's there somewhere.

 

[Shaderon]

OK, here's a question. Is the loyalty being described here affected by the business enterprise that some training has become? If your teacher is making their living off of the fees paid by the students for training, does this change the sense of obligation as opposed to training that is offered freely?

I've seen alot on here lately regarding loyalty and it made me wonder...what does loyalty consist of and how far do we take it?
However, reading some posts through out, and not necessarily in this thread, but it seems almost as if some people let their instructor control every move they make. "I can't cross train because my instructor, Master, etc. won't like it." So if someone went and did this anyways, is it not being loyal? "I can't ask a question of something because he won't like it." Is this Martial Art training or a cult?
Mike

Good points Shoto and Mike, I have been criticised in the past by my own mother for being TOO loyal so I had a deep think about it and changed my outlook a little. I totally understand what it is to be too loyal so I'd say if a teacher is only teaching you because they are paid to do it, you tend to know, if they are teaching you because they want to and they care about your accomplishments then they deserve loyalty whether you pay them or not. Many teachers can't afford to give away training, that doesn't mean that they are not loyal to their students. I'll demonstrate my loyalty once more by blowing a little more sun up my instructors backside and using him for an example. At our last grading my instructor also graded one week later, he told no one. I only found out because I asked him about it as I saw it on the web site. He was more concerned about whether we had graded and making a show about that, than he was about telling anyone that he had graded, I'm still telling people now about it who don't know. He didn't want people NOT to know, he just cared more about us than himself.

Mike, the question of whether to not do something because your instructor wouldn't like it, really should be whether you trust your instructor to know what's best for you. If they feel you wouldn't benefit from a particular training, they shouldn't stop you, they should support you but advise against it like a good father would, but if they wouldn't like it for thier own means, then to me they loose that loyalty.

Loyalty and respect go two ways, it has to be that way otherwise it's icon worship.

 

[Grenadier]

That kind of a situation really hurts. There's no question that the instructor is going to be dishearted at that news, since he's invested all of that time in that student. What's worse, is that the student did not have the courtesy of speaking with the instructor in person.

Now, I could understand if the student wanted to join another school, if it were significantly different and / or better. After all, many people quit Karate to study Jiu Jutsu, and vice versa, if they cannot afford the time / $$$ to cross train at two different places. Or, maybe someone gets fed up with what their school offers, and finds a better school.

However, in this case, according to the OP, the student left the school for another school that is apparently of lower quality. That's where I end up shaking my head in disapproval.

To keep things in perspective, the instructor is going to have to see this as part of the grand scheme. Everyone in your dojo will quit sooner or later. Yes, even your best students will eventually leave, and you yourself will quit (you can't live forever). It's up to you to replace those students, and bring along the others.

 

[Drac]

Did I just come up in a different time

You are part of a very special group..Be proud..Do not waste too much time trying to interupt the actions of class-less people cause it will make you crazy..

You've actually made me feel much better! I thought I was the only one who felt this way, that loyalty was honourable

You are not alone..

Well, I think you are expecting too much from people, which almost always leads to dissapointment

Sad but true..

 

[Jade Tigress]

Well, I think you are expecting too much from people, which almost always leads to dissapointment. It sounds like you both, as many of us, have enough INTEGRITY to never consider such a shallow act, and to feel appropriatley angry or hurt when these jerks affect someone we care about. I'd like to think I haven't lived this long by being stupid, but I AM constantly dissapointed in the actions of others. The best we can do is to keep our own level of the right things in life (including deserved loyalty, intergrity, service to those we care for, etc) where we can try to be the example. I know the old Golden Rule may seem corny, but I'm a believer.

Do something special for your sensei as a group - maybe an informal dinner after class or something easy, but that will let him be reminded of the many that DO CARE for him. Best regards.....

-GARRY

Well said and I agree completely. I too feel a strong sense of loyalty to my instructor. We also had a young man (high school age) that showed great promise and was very dedicated to training. Then...he left for another school, a different style, following another student there. Ok, whatever. Perplexing, but...ok. So, anyway, after about 6 months, the kid comes back (this was about 3 weeks ago) and says he was stupid for leaving and hopes he can still train. Sifu told him of course he could still train, if he wanted to try something else that's fine, all he needed to do was talk to him about it rather than dropping off the face of the earth. What really boggles me are *dedicated* students that just disappear and then show up training somewhere else without a word.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I was taught non-profit and I think this gives me a feirce loyalty to my dojo yet I train in other arts without guilt. They have been satisfied with the level of respect I show them so far, and I'm given respect in turn as a student. Loyalty shows strength of character and patience. It is still more important to be loyal to yourself. Anyone loyal to you should understand this. You have to look out for #1.

 

[Kacey]

Loyalty goes both ways - from instructor to student and student to instructor. This student apparently missed that part, or did not take in some lessons about respect and integrity. I know a student who changed instructors because his instructor quit teaching entirely - and even then, he contacted his former instructor (over a year later) before formally becoming a student of his current instructor.

I'm sure that this issue goes deeper than what was written in the initial post - it is also, sadly, representative of many people today, and an issue that goes much deeper than participation in MA.

 

[Nomad]

Loyalty is important; my teacher has shared his time and knowledge with me. I, in turn, have given him my best effort and stayed with him. I try to pass on what he taught me faithfully.

But, it's also important to recognize that there are two sides to every "disloyal student" story. It's very possible that something happened, for example, between the instructor and favored student that started the thread which the poster is unaware of -- and maybe even which the teacher is unaware of.

While this is important to recognize, I've seen many many instances at our own dojo that followed exactly this path... often without even a word to the instructor explaining that they were leaving... the student just drops out of sight, until someone spots him/her several months later in a different uniform.

OK, here's a question. Is the loyalty being described here affected by the business enterprise that some training has become? If your teacher is making their living off of the fees paid by the students for training, does this change the sense of obligation as opposed to training that is offered freely?

I see it a little differently. I pay fees to keep the school open... pay the rent, water, heating, etc. Although I also pay fees to support the instructor, so he doesn't have to hold down a full-time job and can instead direct all of his energies to martial arts, I feel I owe him way beyond the money involved.

Over the years, my instructor has pushed and pulled me, toughened me, criticized me, supported me, and shared a huge part of himself with me through his teachings. He has changed me and my outlook on martial arts and on life for the better, not through brainwashing or preaching, but mostly through asking questions that have made me examine things I hadn't considered before.

This goes well beyond the $10 / class or so that my fees amount to, and the only currency I really have to repay it are my loyalty and my service (assisting in classes, help planning events, etc.) When someone leaves, that is one thing. The very least they should do is attempt to leave well, and not burn their bridges behind them. Unfortunately, far more people seem to leave very badly than well... I think it comes from an increasingly self-centered attitude of most people these days.

 

[kidswarrior]

I see it a little differently. I pay fees to keep the school open... pay the rent, water, heating, etc. Although I also pay fees to support the instructor, so he doesn't have to hold down a full-time job and can instead direct all of his energies to martial arts, I feel I owe him way beyond the money involved.

Over the years, my instructor has pushed and pulled me, toughened me, criticized me, supported me, and shared a huge part of himself with me....

This goes well beyond the $10 / class or so that my fees amount to, and the only currency I really have to repay it are my loyalty and my service (assisting in classes, help planning events, etc.) When someone leaves, that is one thing. The very least they should do is attempt to leave well, and not burn their bridges behind them. Unfortunately, far more people seem to leave very badly than well... I think it comes from an increasingly self-centered attitude of most people these days.

I see it this way, too. As long as the fees are reasonable, and you're not pushed into buying a new trinket every time you go to a class, I think the instructor has a right to earn a living--as any teacher does. Just as a gifted, caring K-12 (or university) instructor goes well beyond the minimum necessary to get a paycheck, and so I believe can expect some loyalty and dedication from students, so too should the MA instructor.

And maybe the kicker for my assertion is, I teach MA and don't charge. Am able to live without it, so my wife and I agreed up front that's how we'd handle it (students are all kids, and most are underprivileged and couldn't afford tuition). I say this just so you know I'm not putting out a self-justifying line; this is just how I see it.