Loyalty

[Doc]

The problem with the word "loyalty" is that it is often inserted into sentences where another word would be more appropriate. In other words, what exactly does "loyalty" mean to you, and whom should it apply to? How long does "loyalty" last? Can "loyalty" change, wear out, or can it be revoked? If so by whom? What if one person is loyal and the other changes his mind? Is that reasonable? What if a person decides the circumstances have significantly changed? Is "loyalty" only for people or does it apply to other entities like organizations or jobs where department heads and bosses change but the organization continues? How about if you decide to make a change because you simply want to? Does that make you "disloyal?" Are you as an adult paying customer required to be "loyalty" because someone else provides a service? Does that change if someone or something provides a service for free? If its for free, does that mean you're obligated to never change your mind for eternity? Lots of questions associated with a word that is usually batted around when a relationship is severed by a party on the receiving end of a severed relationship.

We live in a society where the most intimate of relationships called marriage, fail at a rate well above 50%. A relationship where every aspect of your lives are inter-twined, where you bare and raise children, and make life changing decisions for other people. Are you disloyal simply because you want a divorce because you fall out of love or grow apart?

So, do we really want to talk about someone who pays you for martial arts lessons being disloyal because they have decided they want to try something different? Is this because you're not the great teacher you think you are, so that no one would ever want to study with someone else?

"Loyalty" is not the word. Try respect in its place. "Loyalty" seems to have a certain amount of ego attached to it. Because you decide to teach someone, you feel they owe you something. Loyalty or more appropriately, "respect" is a two-way street. You do the best you can to teach someone, and they do their best to learn until one or the other decides to make a change. We must get off our martial arts high-horses and realize in a world where there is a martial arts school or teacher, of different styles and personalities on every corner, people can and will change their minds no matter how great we think we are. Just because we call ourselves Grandmaster, sensei, sijo, or grand poobah doesn't mean a thing in the real world outside our little "kingdoms."

In the real world people get up go to work and make a living and are entitled to spend their hard earned money anywhere they like, whenever they decide no matter how good you think your product is. When you run a business you do everything in your power to get and keep a customer and if you loose one, you try and get another and hope the former comes back. And if they do, you welcome them with open arms unless they stole from you.

I've sat in classrooms with men who were ACTUALLY WERE absolutely brilliant in their fields, but I had to drop the class because I made a life choice for me. Not one of them ever considered me "disloyal." They made a life choice to teach and share their knowledge with those who wanted what they had to offer. Those that didn't never affected their desire, passion, or willingness to teach. You teach because you want to, for the passion, and for the shear joy of of the calling. People cannot be disloyal because you decided to make a decision to teach. Who were you disloyal to when you made your decision? Students are not hostages in real institutions of higher learning, nor do teachers guilt trip them because they decide they don't want to be doctor, lawyer, or engineers because they would rather learn to play the guitar and be a musician instead.

If you decide a student wasn't trying hard enough in your opinion, and you stopped giving him your absolute best, are you being disloyal? Are you still cashing the checks?

Maybe, just maybe if two people simply understand the reality of the circumstances, and respect the social contract of the relationship, it can be ended with respect without one or the other being considered disloyal whether or not money is involved.

My teacher, Ed Parker, was flat brilliant and the greatest martial artist I ever knew. He lost black belts his entire life. He never considered any of them disloyal. Loyalty is a temporary contract that can be cancelled by either or both parties at anytime. He remained cordial with the bulk of them until his death.

Put your egos away and teach because you love to, not because you need followers. If you don't, you're going to run into a lot of "disloyal" people in your life. Just be satisfied that they respect your effort and say nice things about you when they leave, because they will all leave eventually.

"Knowledge has no value until shared, but shared knowledge is only valuable to those who give it value. Teachers do not set the value of their knowledge, only the price for their willingness to share it. Only a student can set that value, and that is subject to change." - Ed Parker Sr.

 

[kidswarrior]

Put your egos away and teach because you love to, not because you need followers. If you don't, you're going to run into a lot of "disloyal" people in your life. Just be satisfied that they respect your effort and say nice things about you when they leave...

But if they respect my effort and say nice things about me when/after they leave, I would say that is loyalty. Whether they are actively 'following' me has nothing to do with it. For my part, I certainly never said that loyalty connotes indentured servitude for some set number of years--or worse, life; and thinking back over the thread, offhand I can't recall anyone else intimating that (although I can't say this with certainty). I have personally left instructors before, and if able to I always visited or called to make sure it was a cordial parting. Can't think of a case where either of us saw my changed situation as disloyalty, or believed that their ego needed stroking. To me, I was showing loyalty and respect.

...because they will all leave eventually.

Well, if they don't leave us, we'll leave them; because this life ain't forever. No disloyalty or disrespect intended.

 

[Doc]

But if they respect my effort and say nice things about me when/after they leave, I would say that is loyalty. Whether they are actively 'following' me has nothing to do with it. For my part, I certainly never said that loyalty connotes indentured servitude for some set number of years--or worse, life; and thinking back over the thread, offhand I can't recall anyone else intimating that (although I can't say this with certainty). I have personally left instructors before, and if able to I always visited or called to make sure it was a cordial parting. Can't think of a case where either of us saw my changed situation as disloyalty, or believed that their ego needed stroking. To me, I was showing loyalty and respect.

Well, if they don't leave us, we'll leave them; because this life ain't forever. No disloyalty or disrespect intended.

I agree sir.

 

[Tez3]

Kidswarrior has hit it on the head here! No one is asking for servitude or to have followers. Acknowledgment of the care, thought and effort the instructor has given his students would be enough. sometimes plain good manners would be enough! As Kidswarrior said, leaving an instructor in such a way that it doesn't leave bad feelings rather than just flounce off to another club is the better thing to do.
My instructor doesn't have followers, he cares about his students as a whole. As I write he is travelling to see one who took an overdose last week and whose life is in turmoil. He's not doing that for his ego or to have an ego trip, it's simply because he cares.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Ok, for me this raises another question. If any of you have trained with more than one instructor, have you ever had a conflict of loyalties between them?
Because thats whats happening to me. I train with two instructors, one in MMA, the other in Aikido.
I by nature am the questioning type. I like to understand the logic behind a technique or a tactic as it helps me use them better. I don't mean that I pester about every little detail, that would slow the class down. But if I see something that doesn't make sense to me, or I don't understand, I will ask.
Shane, my MMA instructor, normally explains the logic behind what we train before it, or comes over during it to clear something up if Im having difficulty, so I don't have to ask often. When I do ask, he always explains it clearly and it always makes sense. In the time that Ive trained there, Shane has never once said anything which didn't make logical sense.

Tim, my Aikido instructor, tends to fob off explanations a bit more. More often than not he will cite a historical reference which in alot of cases I know to be innaccurate, or else an anecdote about what its like "on the street". Thats all well and good but it doesn't really answer the question does it?

Consequently on many an occasion Ive had them give me instruction that contradicts each other, and have been forced to make my own mind up about the issue. That however is a minor issue.
The major one relates to how they deal with my other training.
Shane, is very supportive of me training in Aikido, and has never once bad-mouthed another art. Like myself, he feels that everything in martial arts has its place, and so long as you understand that place its all fun.
In fact he actively encourages us once we have a solid base in our training, to try other training as well to give us more perspective on what we do.

Tim at least once a class talks about how MMA isn't "real" and that there is no skill involved etc.
Since he learned Im entering my first competition in a few months, the level of this has steadily risen.
Further to this he recently started including ground-fighting in the training, and predictably enough I generally beat the others in the class since Ive more experience at it. However despite the fact that he is training the others to do exactly the same stuff as Im doing, he gives out that Im doing it wrong when Im winning. Which is very, very frustrating.

So, where would your loyalties lie in that situation?

 

[kidswarrior]

Shane, is very supportive of me training in Aikido, and has never once bad-mouthed another art. Like myself, he feels that everything in martial arts has its place, and so long as you understand that place its all fun.
In fact he actively encourages us once we have a solid base in our training, to try other training as well to give us more perspective on what we do.

Tim at least once a class talks about how MMA isn't "real" and that there is no skill involved etc.
Since he learned Im entering my first competition in a few months, the level of this has steadily risen.
Further to this he recently started including ground-fighting in the training, and predictably enough I generally beat the others in the class since Ive more experience at it. However despite the fact that he is training the others to do exactly the same stuff as Im doing, he gives out that Im doing it wrong when Im winning. Which is very, very frustrating.

So, where would your loyalties lie in that situation?

While not pretending to know all the intricacies of your life in the MAs, to me it sounds as if Tim is worried about losing you, and so is doing the exact wrong thing to keep you. If it's in your nature, I'd say maybe have a friendly chat (or several!) with Tim and reassure him that you like his class/art, and intend to stick with it. You could bring up the MMA training, so it's not the elephant in the room, and tell him you like that too, but that it doesn't affect your aikido commitment or plans to continue.

In short: Tim is insecure (MA instructors are human too ), and if you can allay those insecurities, you can help him, yourself, and all his other students too.

Either that, or this is all the ramblings of an old man who hasn't' had enough coffee yet this AM :caffeine:

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

While not pretending to know all the intricacies of your life in the MAs, to me it sounds as if Tim is worried about losing you, and so is doing the exact wrong thing to keep you. If it's in your nature, I'd say maybe have a friendly chat (or several!) with Tim and reassure him that you like his class/art, and intend to stick with it. You could bring up the MMA training, so it's not the elephant in the room, and tell him you like that too, but that it doesn't affect your aikido commitment or plans to continue.

In short: Tim is insecure (MA instructors are human too ), and if you can allay those insecurities, you can help him, yourself, and all his other students too.

Either that, or this is all the ramblings of an old man who hasn't' had enough coffee yet this AM :caffeine:

Heh no you're not that far off man. Only problem is Tim is a little difficult to communicate with about this stuff. For a young guy he's very set in his ways
I think part of the problem is that he's trying to make our Aikido training more realistic, and subsequently pounces on anything he doesn't consider to be real. And also another part of the problem is the class is of mixed interests. There's one guy really interested in the traditional stuff, another who is interested only in self-defence , myself who's involved in the sporting side and just plain loves martial arts, and then the rest who just sorta bounce around between what they like.
So Tim keeps changing the focus of the class between self-defence and traditional training to whatever will attract and keep the other students happy.
Which is a pity because whenever we just forget all that and get down to just training, its always really enjoyable and productive.

 

[Nomad]

But if they respect my effort and say nice things about me when/after they leave, I would say that is loyalty. Whether they are actively 'following' me has nothing to do with it. For my part, I certainly never said that loyalty connotes indentured servitude for some set number of years--or worse, life; and thinking back over the thread, offhand I can't recall anyone else intimating that (although I can't say this with certainty). I have personally left instructors before, and if able to I always visited or called to make sure it was a cordial parting. Can't think of a case where either of us saw my changed situation as disloyalty, or believed that their ego needed stroking. To me, I was showing loyalty and respect.

Well, if they don't leave us, we'll leave them; because this life ain't forever. No disloyalty or disrespect intended.

Agreed. It's less a matter of if someone leaves and much more a matter of how. Leaving with no notification whatsoever or with a terse email rather than a face to face is extremely discourteous and shows disrespect for what the instructor DID teach you (even if someone only stays a few classes, they generally don't go away empty-handed... something has improved).

It also leaves the instructor with no idea what the difficulty was... often there could be a simple solution (or easily corrected misunderstanding) that is just never looked for.

 

[kidswarrior]

I agree sir.

Thank you, Sir. That means a lot coming from you.

 

[jks9199]

So, do we really want to talk about someone who pays you for martial arts lessons being disloyal because they have decided they want to try something different? Is this because you're not the great teacher you think you are, so that no one would ever want to study with someone else?

"Loyalty" is not the word. Try respect in its place. "Loyalty" seems to have a certain amount of ego attached to it. Because you decide to teach someone, you feel they owe you something. Loyalty or more appropriately, "respect" is a two-way street. You do the best you can to teach someone, and they do their best to learn until one or the other decides to make a change. We must get off our martial arts high-horses and realize in a world where there is a martial arts school or teacher, of different styles and personalities on every corner, people can and will change their minds no matter how great we think we are. Just because we call ourselves Grandmaster, sensei, sijo, or grand poobah doesn't mean a thing in the real world outside our little "kingdoms."

In the real world people get up go to work and make a living and are entitled to spend their hard earned money anywhere they like, whenever they decide no matter how good you think your product is. When you run a business you do everything in your power to get and keep a customer and if you loose one, you try and get another and hope the former comes back. And if they do, you welcome them with open arms unless they stole from you.

...

My teacher, Ed Parker, was flat brilliant and the greatest martial artist I ever knew. He lost black belts his entire life. He never considered any of them disloyal. Loyalty is a temporary contract that can be cancelled by either or both parties at anytime. He remained cordial with the bulk of them until his death.

Put your egos away and teach because you love to, not because you need followers. If you don't, you're going to run into a lot of "disloyal" people in your life. Just be satisfied that they respect your effort and say nice things about you when they leave, because they will all leave eventually.

"Knowledge has no value until shared, but shared knowledge is only valuable to those who give it value. Teachers do not set the value of their knowledge, only the price for their willingness to share it. Only a student can set that value, and that is subject to change." - Ed Parker Sr.

I agree with a lot of what you've said here. "Loyalty" may not be the best word -- but it's the best I can think of a the moment to denote the two-way relationship between many martial arts teachers and their students, which is different than that of a classroom teacher and students. Many martial arts teachers (as do many other athletic coaches!) feel an obligation to teach more than the mere mechanics of the martial arts to their students; they guide them, and help them become better people, where the classroom professor doesn't go beyond the course material. The Japanese term giri as I understand it embodies this relationship more completely, where each has an obligation to the other.

To me, though, the obligation doesn't mean that a student of mine can't train with someone else. I actively send my students to other teachers to learn more. And the relationship isn't set in stone; if you don't like how I teach, you have every right to find someone whose teaching style fits you better. It's nice if you let me know -- but it's your choice. (I've even referred people to other instructors who I thought fit them better!) I've made the commitment to my teacher to teach what he taught me faithfully; to try to make sure that the particular take on our martial art that he learned from his teacher, and passed onto me doesn't end with me. And I've made the commitment with some of my students to continue to teach them that art as long as they are willing to train. (One advantage of non-professional teaching; I don't have to have students to pay the bills!)

 

[jks9199]

Tim at least once a class talks about how MMA isn't "real" and that there is no skill involved etc.
Since he learned Im entering my first competition in a few months, the level of this has steadily risen.
Further to this he recently started including ground-fighting in the training, and predictably enough I generally beat the others in the class since Ive more experience at it. However despite the fact that he is training the others to do exactly the same stuff as Im doing, he gives out that Im doing it wrong when Im winning. Which is very, very frustrating.

One observation on this... When you're in Tim's school, you owe it to him to do it his way. Just because you're "winning" doesn't mean you're doing the technique the way he wants you to do it. It's very easy and tempting to say "I already know this" and not realize that you're missing some small detail of what he's doing that's different -- and important.

That said, I personally have a problem with anyone badmouthing another art. I may disagree with how Some Other-Do does something, but that doesn't make it wrong. Neither I nor the martial art I study has a monopoly on effective fighting; I've been taught from day one to respect each system.

 

[Doc]

I agree with a lot of what you've said here. "Loyalty" may not be the best word -- but it's the best I can think of a the moment to denote the two-way relationship between many martial arts teachers and their students, which is different than that of a classroom teacher and students. Many martial arts teachers (as do many other athletic coaches!) feel an obligation to teach more than the mere mechanics of the martial arts to their students; they guide them, and help them become better people, where the classroom professor doesn't go beyond the course material. The Japanese term giri as I understand it embodies this relationship more completely, where each has an obligation to the other.

To me, though, the obligation doesn't mean that a student of mine can't train with someone else. I actively send my students to other teachers to learn more. And the relationship isn't set in stone; if you don't like how I teach, you have every right to find someone whose teaching style fits you better. It's nice if you let me know -- but it's your choice. (I've even referred people to other instructors who I thought fit them better!) I've made the commitment to my teacher to teach what he taught me faithfully; to try to make sure that the particular take on our martial art that he learned from his teacher, and passed onto me doesn't end with me. And I've made the commitment with some of my students to continue to teach them that art as long as they are willing to train. (One advantage of non-professional teaching; I don't have to have students to pay the bills!)

Couldn't agree more. I just think the word loyalty is often misused. One other thing - I have never engaged in the practice of trying to teach students "character." My process allows me to only accept students of established "good character." This allows me to concentrate on teaching.

 

[Carol]

Couldn't agree more. I just think the word loyalty is often misused.

Jack Welch (former GE CEO) wrote in one of his books that many folks mistake loyalty with longevity or tenure.

Mr. Welch emphasizes that true loyalty has little to do with time in position. Longevity means the person has showed up and stayed there, loyalty means the person brings their A game with them and truly performed...as well as advanced. He even touched upon how loyalty also means the person leaving the job when it is move onward. A seminar I took tied in this concept with the story of a local businesswoman who had a job she loved but decided to leave to follow new opportunities for advancement. She transitioned in such a way that she not only left her company on good terms but she also became an ally of her old company while moving forward in her new position.

In other words, loyalty means making the most of one's performance as well as the circumstances therein.

Personally I've spent time on the mat with enthusiastic beginner students giving there absolute all to their mat time, diligent intermediate students exploding with joy when discovering a deeper meaning to what they are doing, and mopey advanced students that can't even be bothered to hold a pad correctly, let alone do the drill properly.

I'm inclined to agree with Mr. Welch's definition of loyalty.

 

[jks9199]

Couldn't agree more. I just think the word loyalty is often misused. One other thing - I have never engaged in the practice of trying to teach students "character." My process allows me to only accept students of established "good character." This allows me to concentrate on teaching.

By the time a person is old enough to really train in the martial arts (not simply attend "Pee Wee Powerhouse Activity Hour" or whatever you want to call a lot of programs for the very young), their basic character is already formed. You might refine it a little, or shape its expression -- but the teaching of character isn't done in a few hours in the dojo. It starts at birth, and is done by observation. That doesn't mean that, as a teacher, I can't help or guide my students into being better people, even if it's just in helping them confront their own fears and limitations.

 

[kidswarrior]

Jack Welch (former GE CEO) wrote in one of his books that many folks mistake loyalty with longevity or tenure.

Mr. Welch emphasizes that ... Longevity means the person has showed up and stayed there, loyalty means the person brings their A game with them and truly performed...as well as advanced. He even touched upon how loyalty also means the person leaving the job when it is move onward.

Articulate and enlightening, as always, Carol. :ultracool But sometimes I just hate it :tantrum: that you're :mst: so smart! :mst:

Just kidding, sheesh. :high5:

 

[kidswarrior]

By the time a person is old enough to really train in the martial arts (not simply attend "Pee Wee Powerhouse Activity Hour" or whatever you want to call a lot of programs for the very young), their basic character is already formed. You might refine it a little, or shape its expression -- but the teaching of character isn't done in a few hours in the dojo. It starts at birth, and is done by observation. That doesn't mean that, as a teacher, I can't help or guide my students into being better people, even if it's just in helping them confront their own fears and limitations.

Well put, jks. I use the old standby for this type of teaching: that which can only be caught, not taught.

 

[TheOriginalName]

I thought i would throw my 2cents in -----

Loyalty is a part of honour.
A person without layalty is a person without honour.
Therefore such acts of selfishness can be almost expected.

Being rather new to MA, only been training for a months now, i've already developed a lot of respect for my instructors. During my sessions, even tho there may be nearly 30 of us in a class, it always seems like it's 1 on 1. But its the time after training that they have earnt my respect and loyalty. Each class my instructor puts his hand up to spend additional time with us to go over a few basics again - and it is significant time.

Such dedication to the student can only be repaid by loyalty.
And i know that i am not the only white belt to feel this way - we often talk before our training about the instructors dedication - and i've never heard a harsh word spoken of him.

That said, i could understand it if someone wanted to move on in order to pursue another Sensai (yes, my speeling sucks) if it was felt that they could bring something that the first may not have been able to - and this happens all the time in professional sport - but loyalty is being able to front up to them, explain the situation and know even before you have spoken that they will understand.

Again - just my ramblings.....

 

[Steel Tiger]

The problem I see whenever I think of loyalty is that it appears to be becoming an outmoded concept. I am not surprised that younger students generally show no loyalty, they have no societal examples.

Look at major sports. Players move around chasing better pay packets, or they get traded as part of a good deal. The players are not loyal, and the clubs are not loyal. There is no reward for staying with a club one's entire career. Further any sport with a salary cap actively discourages loyalty because players who are of any quality who stay loyal will take up too much of the cap.

All to often we see portrayals of deceit and double-dealing presented as righteous. Loyalty does not even get a look in these days.

What do the young have to work with? If they're lucky they will find a dojo with a solid group of loyal students. But it is much more likely they will find a group of people out to get what they can then move on to the next knowledge feeder trough.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

One observation on this... When you're in Tim's school, you owe it to him to do it his way. Just because you're "winning" doesn't mean you're doing the technique the way he wants you to do it. It's very easy and tempting to say "I already know this" and not realize that you're missing some small detail of what he's doing that's different -- and important.

That said, I personally have a problem with anyone badmouthing another art. I may disagree with how Some Other-Do does something, but that doesn't make it wrong. Neither I nor the martial art I study has a monopoly on effective fighting; I've been taught from day one to respect each system.

Actually I'd be perfectly inclined to agree with you if he was getting us to use Aikido techniques. But he's not. With the ground-fighting training we're doing, he's having us do the EXACT same moves that are used in BJJ, just not as thoroughly. Arm-bars, rear-naked chokes etc.
So when one student does an arm-bar, its good. But when I do the exact same move, its wrong.
I dislike saying this, but I think the problem is not the moves I use, but where I learned them. He really does seem to think absolutely nothing good from MMA training, and that its just brawling.

 

[whitetiger2001]

Loyalty has to be earned. Before anyone gets upset, let me explain. I could understand if the student described in the original post had been mistreated or belonged to a school where the primary focus was to have more BBs than a competing school, under those circumstances, perhaps going elsewhere wouldn't be seen as disloyal. Unfortunately, there are to many black belt factories out there, we've all seen them.
BUT in this case, I find the stduent totally lacking not only in loyalty but respect. After five years away from my first and only dojo, my instructors are still my instructors. When I reeach my first BB, I took a collection from the others who went to the test and we bought him a nice sword to thank him for inversting the time and patience in us to help us reach our goal. Too many see the BB as the end of the road and either drop out all together or move on to another school.
Sadly, this is a growing problem, with the plentitude of BB factories out there. A good indstructor should be honored by his students because they have taken time to help you develop. If you feel that you need to crosstrain, to get skills not offered in your dojo, that's fine but discuss your decision with your sensei and seek his advice. But don't leave the first school just to train elsewhere.

First rule= respect