Leung Jan's original art

[KPM]

Yeah, what Zuti said! ;-) Sure, folks will think in various ways...and Joy's post is a perfect example of that! But one has to examine the evidence and "most likely" and go beyond "sifu sez." As Zuti pointed out, in a culture where "saving face" is very important (and even more so in martial arts circles!), sure someone's followers are always going to tell the stories that make them and their teacher look good! Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, and Ng Chun So were known as the "three heroes of Foshan." They were known to be friends and to train together. Who here really thinks that Ip Man would not have learned from and exchanged with someone that was his senior and that he associated with on a regular basis? Rene started referring to the style as "Sum Nun Wing Chun" after visiting Sum Nun because Sum Nun's senior students demanded it! By all accounts Sum Nun did not significantly change Yuen Kay Shan's methods, he only added the 12 initial short sets that he had learned from Cheung Bo. You have to be careful with revisionist historical retelling that frames things in someone's favor. ;-)

 

[Vajramusti]

Yeah, what Zuti said! ;-) Sure, folks will think in various ways...and Joy's post is a perfect example of that! But one has to examine the evidence and "most likely" and go beyond "sifu sez." As Zuti pointed out, in a culture where "saving face" is very important (and even more so in martial arts circles!), sure someone's followers are always going to tell the stories that make them and their teacher look good! Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, and Ng Chun So were known as the "three heroes of Foshan." They were known to be friends and to train together. Who here really thinks that Ip Man would not have learned from and exchanged with someone that was his senior and that he associated with on a regular basis? Rene started referring to the style as "Sum Nun Wing Chun" after visiting Sum Nun because Sum Nun's senior students demanded it! By all accounts Sum Nun did not significantly change Yuen Kay Shan's methods, he only added the 12 initial short sets that he had learned from Cheung Bo. You have to be careful with revisionist historical retelling that frames things in someone's favor. ;-)

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Zuti and KPM have their own opinions- and I have mine.
Pointless to argue.

 

[kung fu fighter]

But my own view is- IM and YKS knew each other and were neighbors and interacted some together. But I don't think that YKS taught IP man wc.Among others three points in my reasoning.
1.People infer different things from videos and chi chat. To my eyes- in both structure and dynamics- IM's structure and motion is different from YKS. They turn on the axis differently-

what's the differences in turning on the axis between the two?

2.If you get someone to translate Kwok Fu's last "secret interview(he died in 2011 and was one of two earliest Foshan students)-you will see that he also knew YKS and mentions 1. the axis 2. he was able to get through to YKS and 3. when YKS came over- IM man told Kwok Fu not to show YKS, the IM dummy work

A friend of mine translated this for me and said it was Cheung bo the cook that Kwok Fu was referring to and not YKS

Incidentally Sam Nun developed much of his wc himself though he started with YKS. Rene's website originally was called YKS wing chun. When Rene visited Sum Nun . SN was not very happy with that. Then Rene changed it(the name) to give Sum Nun proper credit. because of Chinese cultural tendencies-there is a lot of disguising of conversations and relationships. So look at what actually remains in the dynamics- specially the feet in IM and YKS-SN.

I 've also heard this story, from what i hear Sum Nung wasn't happy with renbe calling it YKSWC and told Rene that he didn't learn much From YKS, that most or all of his wing chun came from Cheung bo. Maybe you can confirm if this is true?

 

[Vajramusti]

Navin- you have to watch the feet in chum kiu turns(Sum Num's son's chum kiu with WSL and HKM and TST and make up your own mind.
ON Sum Nun's dissatisfaction- I heard that from a very good friend-now deceased who corresponded regularly with a close friend of SN.
That's all. You met one good student of SN in NY I believe. He is quiet , competent and good.I ma not in that loop.

 

[zuti car]

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Zuti and KPM have their own opinions- and I have mine.
Pointless to argue.

I don;t see any argument here, just some exchange of what we know ( or we think we know). It is interesting for me to see (read) how different people may have such a different opinions on same things . I value every point of view , it gives me a different perspective , and that is an important thing

 

[zuti car]

Yeah, what Zuti said! ;-) Sure, folks will think in various ways...and Joy's post is a perfect example of that! But one has to examine the evidence and "most likely" and go beyond "sifu sez." As Zuti pointed out, in a culture where "saving face" is very important (and even more so in martial arts circles!), sure someone's followers are always going to tell the stories that make them and their teacher look good! Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, and Ng Chun So were known as the "three heroes of Foshan." They were known to be friends and to train together. Who here really thinks that Ip Man would not have learned from and exchanged with someone that was his senior and that he associated with on a regular basis? Rene started referring to the style as "Sum Nun Wing Chun" after visiting Sum Nun because Sum Nun's senior students demanded it! By all accounts Sum Nun did not significantly change Yuen Kay Shan's methods, he only added the 12 initial short sets that he had learned from Cheung Bo. You have to be careful with revisionist historical retelling that frames things in someone's favor. ;-)

To get closer to the truth , it is important to know people , their culture, way of thinking , social norms . Measuring data about kung fu history from western cultural perspective is completely wrong . Kung fu history is not a "history" which purpose is to present facts about past events , it is actually everything but that . People on the east do not put much attention to these "histories" , at least not until $$$ is involved .
History revision in common trend in Europe these days , currently , WWI history in changing and I am afraid in couple of years when they start changing WWII history children will learn in schools how bad Jews killed 6 millions Germans in concentration camps . Now , imagine how kung fu history is changing when "official " one ,supported with unquestionable proves is changed .

 

[kung fu fighter]

Navin- you have to watch the feet in chum kiu turns(Sum Num's son's chum kiu with WSL and HKM and TST and make up your own mind.

When turning WSL and HKM axis is over their heels, TST's is closer to the center of his feet exactly like yip man does in the black and white footage,YKS/Sum Nung axis is over the K1 point of their feet like in Kulo pin sun wck.

Question for you Joy, what's the benefit of having one's axis over the heels when turning?

 

[Marnetmar]

Leung Sheung people like myself also turn closer to the front of their foot.

I think I've heard someone say that Leung Sheung's style shares more characteristics with mainland styles than Yip Man's later Hong Kong students but I haven't studied any other WC styles due to a lack of other WC schools in my area so I don't know if that's true or not. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Vajramusti]

When turning WSL and HKM axis is over their heels, TST's is closer to the center of his feet exactly like yip man does in the black and white footage,YKS/Sum Nung axis is over the K1 point of their feet like in Kulo pin sun wck.

Question for you Joy, what's the benefit of having one's axis over the heels when turning?

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Navin
One should be careful about inferences from IM's videos. He was old and bent over and made some natural balance adjustments.
Regarding the heels..you do not lean back on the heels. The feet are flat on the ground.The foot has many joints which adjust including the toes. The heel is simply the focal point just as a plumber applies a wrench for turning a pipe. The objective is to minimize loss of body unity and not throwing off the center line including the dan tien.
Not easy to learn.Once learned the brain takes over controlling the body-
making adjustments for applications-including for surfaces, aging etc.
People who didn't stay long with IM or had CLF or something else embedded in them early were not good at doing it.

 

[geezer]

Regarding the heels... People who didn't stay long with IM or had CLF or something else embedded in them early were not good at doing it.

Joy, I'm sure where this is leading. Different lineages and, indeed different branches of the Yip Man lineage differ significantly on how they do stance turning. They all seem convinced that they, and only they have it right. It's been discussed at length on other threads. Ultimately what one does can either be determined by a. clan loyalty, or b. functionality. And functionality varies with the individual.

Either way, this is a discussion that quickly moves off topic.

 

[Vajramusti]

Joy, I'm sure where this is leading. Different lineages and, indeed different branches of the Yip Man lineage differ significantly on how they do stance turning. They all seem convinced that they, and only they have it right. It's been discussed at length on other threads. Ultimately what one does can either be determined by a. clan loyalty, or b. functionality. And functionality varies with the individual.

Either way, this is a discussion that quickly moves off topic.

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Agree-
The Leung shun folks including Leung ting turn differently. And- W. Cheung steps.Each has implications for other body motions. Agree about moving off topic. I just answered Navin's question and I am done.

 

[kung fu fighter]

Leung Sheung people like myself also turn closer to the front of their foot.

I think I've heard someone say that Leung Sheung's style shares more characteristics with mainland styles than Yip Man's later Hong Kong students but I haven't studied any other WC styles due to a lack of other WC schools in my area so I don't know if that's true or not. Can anyone confirm this?

Yes Leung sheung's wing chun shares more characteristics in common with Yuen Kay Shan wck, such as turning closer to the front of their foot. This is good evidence to support the argument of Yip Man being heavily influenced by YKS (code name for leung Bik), and this is clearly reflected by what he passed down to his early students such as Leung Sheung and Tsui Sheung Tin.

Navin
One should be careful about inferences from IM's videos. He was old and bent over and made some natural balance adjustments.

I find this hard to believe, especially since his early students were taught this by him.

 

[Vajramusti]

Yes Leung sheung's wing chun shares more characteristics in common with Yuen Kay Shan wck, such as turning closer to the front of their foot. This is good evidence to support the argument of Yip Man being heavily influenced by YKS (code name for leung Bik), and this is clearly reflected by what he passed down to his early students such as Leung Sheung and Tsui Sheung Tin.

 

[Vajramusti]

Navin - you have your own inferences!

 

[kung fu fighter]

Regarding the heels..you do not lean back on the heels. The feet are flat on the ground.The foot has many joints which adjust including the toes. The heel is simply the focal point just as a plumber applies a wrench for turning a pipe. The objective is to minimize loss of body unity and not throwing off the center line including the dan tien.
Not easy to learn.Once learned the brain takes over controlling the body-
making adjustments for applications-including for surfaces, aging etc.
People who didn't stay long with IM or had CLF or something else embedded in them early were not good at doing it.

Over the last 25 years I've practiced both turning axis, I found when the turning axis is on the heels, there is no forward drive or stable connection with the ground since your feet are turning on top of the ground, ground coupling is diminished by atleast 70% when compared to screwing into the ground by having the turning axis closer to the front of the feet. not to mention the tremendous amount of waist torque one has when the turning axis closer to the front of the feet, which I am sure KPM can attest to from his kulo pin sun wck experience.

The objective is to minimize loss of body unity and not throwing off the center line including the dan tien.

I assure you if the turning axis is closer to the front of the feet, there is no loss of body unity nor throwing off of the centerline and dan tien. it's just that it uses different physics mainly centripetal and centrifugal forces to orbit the opponent's center axis rather than remaining directly in front of the opponent and extending straight forward as in the turning axis being on the heels.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...m.svg/220px-Centripetal_force_diagram.svg.png
http://www.wpclipart.com/science/how_things_work/Centrifugal_force.png

 

[kung fu fighter]

having the turning axis on the heels is much like a spinning top on the ground, no ground coupling or rooting

 

[Vajramusti]

having the turning axis on the heels is much like a spinning top on the ground, no ground coup
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Fine

 

[Kwan Sau]

I've turned on the heels for many years, never had any issues. It seems clear from reading this post that we all have our lineage specific methods . I guess what's most important is: can we make it work when the SHTF. ;-)

 

[kung fu fighter]

I've turned on the heels for many years, never had any issues.

Based on my experience it depends on who you are training with, if your training partner's turning axis is also on his heels, then there would be no noticeable difference since you both are using the same bio-mechanics and momentum, however if you have to deal with an opponent with alot of incoming momentum you would be easily uprooted if the turning axis is on the heels.

It seems clear from reading this post that we all have our lineage specific methods . I guess what's most important is: can we make it work when the SHTF. ;-)

I agree! To be honest I don't follow dogma of any wck linages I only concern myself with what the most efficient way of doing things especially when it come to WCK bio-mechanics. Based on my research, having the turning axis on the K1 point of the feet is more efficient than it on the heels, but not as efficient as having it on the arch of the feet using force flow.

 

[dlcox]

It amazes me how many will argue moot points, such as weight distribution and rotation, in a thread about Liang Zan's original art, as a means of establishing ancestry and historical validation to a root method. It's obvious that if one wants to know what influenced Liang Zan and his development of Yong Chun you need to look at his influences. Notably, Liang Yi Dai, Huang Hua Bao and his own father.

Undoubtedly his father was a huge influence in his life. His father was a military man and ran a military school whose recruits fought in various conflicts. To dismiss this and focus on hand positions and stances is ludicrous. We can assume with relative accuracy, that Liang Yi Dai and Huang Hua Bao from the Red Boats, more than likely studied Yong Chun White Crane as passed on by Li Wen Mao. This fits in better with the oral history as well as real history, though we will never know for certain, but many of the markers are there. The other influence into Liang Zan's version of Yong Chun is most likely from the material taught at the military academy owned by his family. This is always overlooked and dismissed, I cannot understand why. Realistically it fits better than mysterious snake fist methods from Emei, or esoteric teachings from a wayward Shaolin monk.

The original method will never be found, Liang Zan was still tinkering with his art until he died. But the blueprint can be found. There is evidence for what influenced the art, we just need to look in the right place. Apply logic and deduction and forget about all the romantic influences that were tacked on many, many years later. Yong Chun is supposed to be simplistic, yet everyone over-complicates it's movement, theory and history in effort to be unique to all other arts developed by the same culture in the same era and from the same region. Why?