Leung Jan's original art

[kung fu fighter]

It amazes me how many will argue moot points, such as weight distribution and rotation, in a thread about Liang Zan's original art, as a means of establishing ancestry and historical validation to a root method.To focus on hand positions and stances is ludicrous.

Discussing the turning axis gives us specific DNA evidence of what Leung Jan's Origional art may have looked like, so it's not a moot point

We can assume with relative accuracy, that Liang Yi Dai and Huang Hua Bao from the Red Boats, more than likely studied Yong Chun White Crane as passed on by Li Wen Mao.

Agree! But there was also a snake boxing art that was fused with Yong chun White Crane in the creation of wing chun which most WCK linages acknowledge as part of their history including Yip Man WCK, YKSWCK, Snake crane WCK, Cho Ga WCK, Kulo pin sun WCK. So can we can agree that these were the two major core systems in the wck creation?

 

[dlcox]

Discussing the turning axis gives us specific DNA evidence of what Leung Jan's Origional art may have looked like, so it's not a moot point



Agree! But there was also a snake boxing art that was fused with Yong chun White Crane in the creation of wing chun which most WCK linages acknowledge as part of their history including Yip Man WCK, YKSWCK, Snake crane WCK, Cho Ga WCK, Kulo pin sun WCK. So can we can agree that these were the two major core systems in the wck creation?

Discussion of turning on the axis only gives us individual preference, not DNA, we don't know how Liang Zan did it or even suggested how to do it. Many within a same lineage do it differently. The same goes for theory, application and techniques. Each teacher adds on or emphasizes aspects that they understand well and can transmit. Technique and method are not a good source of "DNA", though can be helpful in research, teachers and their influences are key to understanding what went into the primordial stew. In Liang Zan's case we have to eliminate much of what his descendants added to the art, find the common ground and start backwards from there.

Those stories are highly romanticized and are not a verifiable part of Yong Chun "History". Most of these stories were introduced in the Republican Era. The only art to have any traceable link to Yong Chun is Yong Chun White Crane, and even that link isn't definitive as far as documentation goes, but is as of current the best source from which to start.

 

[dlcox]

Here are some links to some well written discussions on the art of Yong Chun and it's origins and development.

http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2014/03/20/conceptualizing-the-asian-martial-arts-ancient-origins-social-institutions-and-leung-jans-wing-chun/
http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/07/12/hing-chao-discusses-southern-boxing-white-crane-and-the-eastern-theory-of-wing-chuns-origins/
http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2012/10/19/lives-of-chinese-martial-artists-3-chan-wah-shun-and-the-creation-of-wing-chun/
http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2012/08/10/wing-chun-and-the-problem-of-origins-why-does-it-have-to-come-from-anywhere/

 

[kung fu fighter]

Technique and method are not a good source of "DNA"

I am not talking about technique or method, I am talking about Leung Jan's WCK power generation and the bio-mechanics involved which were passed down to Yip Man, Fung Chun, and Lo Kwai.

 

[dlcox]

I am not talking about technique or method, I am talking about Leung Jan's WCK power generation and the bio-mechanics involved which were passed down to Yip Man, Fung Chun, and Lo Kwai.

I will repeat.

Each teacher adds on or emphasizes aspects that they understand well and can transmit.
In Liang Zan's case we have to eliminate much of what his descendants added to the art, find the common ground and start backwards from there.

Ye Wen, Feng Chun & Luo Guai all do it differently. Their students do it differently than them, especially in the case of Ye Wen. No one knows what Liang Zan's bio-mechanics and power generation involved. This methodology cannot be used as a reliable reference into Liang Zan's martial upbringing.

We must look at his influences first and cross reference with what exists to see what overlaps, if anything, to see what has survived.

Liang Zan's emphasis changed in Gulao, instead of facing the opponent he stressed Pian Shen (Side Body). He did this not because he thought it more original, he did it because he was old and wanted to avoid unnecessary contact. Using side body to avoid clashing and use of hard bridge as he knew he could not compete in that fashion with a younger stronger opponent. He stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method.

People need to stop looking at preferences and making assumptions of the history based on them. There is absolutely no tangible evidence to support that Yongchun even existed prior to Liang Zan. The name Yongchun was not even documented until 2 generations after him. There may be a grain of truth to the mythology but the real truth lies within the political and social climates of the era and the people directly impacted that were living during those times. Why did the people of the Pearl River delta need to import a martial tradition from somewhere else? They have their own rich history of unique and effective methods which were forged in response to the influences and situations they encountered in their own backyard.

Liang Zan is the only verifiable and documented individual of his era in regards to the art of Yongchun. Yes, someone did teach him martial arts, what they taught we do not really know. We can only speculate and form conclusions based on assumption and preference. Nothing can be verified at present, we can though, make educated guesses based upon logic and "Most Likely" scenarios. But in order to do this, we have to look at what influences were present in the area. Not only the Opera (which many performers are documented to have been White Crane stylists) but also the cultural aspects, most notably the Hejia (Hakka) people, as well as political and societal influences. We can all make assumptions and even link oral traditions with our assumptions as "Proof" of our beliefs, but this does not make it TRUE.

Yongchun is like a lump of clay. This clay is molded and shaped by many artists into their own interpretation of what they believe is the true representation. Unfortunately nothing exists in a vacuum and no art is left unmolested by cultural influences. The Yongchun of Malaysia is different from Vietnam's which is different from Foshan's which is different from Hong Kong's which is different from New York's etc......This is because the methods and traditions of each of these places has affected the approach, structure, styling and theory based upon the local cultural influences it has been subjected to.

Where did the art first appear (originate) as verifiably documented? Not Emei not Sichuan, Yunnan or etc. It was in Liang Zan's home town of Foshan. It's not impossible that it was imported there from somewhere else, its just that there is no definitive proof that it was. Foshan was a melting pot of sorts, being a port city, but if one examines the true southern arts of the area Yong Chun Quan, Bai He Quan, Long Xing Quan, Bai Mei Quan, Zhujia Quan, Nan Tong Long Quan they all share similar qualities, structure, history, theory and techniques. We know much of the history wasn't created until the early 20th century and based upon the Wuxia novels of the time. So what does that leave?

 

[Hendrik]

I am not talking about technique or method, I am talking about Leung Jan's WCK power generation and the bio-mechanics involved which were passed down to Yip Man, Fung Chun, and Lo Kwai.

They don't understand your question, thus not able to answer you.

If there is power generation, by evidence all of the above lineages are variation of external physical power generation and so no need to read deeper then what doesn't exist

 

[Hendrik]

"
Liang Zan's emphasis changed in Gulao, instead of facing the opponent he stressed Pian Shen (Side Body). He did this not because he thought it more original, he did it because he was old and wanted to avoid unnecessary contact. Using side body to avoid clashing and use of hard bridge as he knew he could not compete in that fashion with a younger stronger opponent. He stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method."


This above is a sound good but non realistic reason.

The art of Wck has hard body long fist and soft body short strike in both front , side, back, three general position.

Side body position alone is partial and a limitation. Go try out with a well train western boxer or kyokushin K1 type and see how will it work or not.


Imho,
It is more likely to be Someone's creative story then leung jan , assume Leong jan is an expert.

 

[dlcox]

"The art of Wck has hard body long fist and soft body short strike in both front , side, back, three general position. Side body position alone is partial and a limitation. Go try out with a well train western boxer or kyokushin K1 type and see how will it work or not. Imho, It is more likely to be Someone's creative story then leung jan , assume Leong jan is an expert.

I am well aware that Yongchun covers all the ranges and that one method alone, Side Body or Front Facing, are by themselves limited. Your response to my statement is out of context. He EMPHASIZED side body as a means of neutralizing a stronger opponent, not that he didn't also teach the front facing in Gulao. This exact analogy is represented in the video of Sergio using sensitivity and side body movement to absorb and return. So I don't see what your getting at, unless it's to refute what Sergio is doing. Besides what I was referring to was Preference of movement and technique and how that cannot be used for reliable confirmation of a link to origin. BTW this story was also confirmed by two Gulao practitioners, one of whom is Jim Roselando.

Another thing is this whole "Engine" talk, there is only one "Engine" what differs is the mechanics involved. There is no such thing as "Internal" or "External" , "Soft" or "Hard" these are simply labels used to define emphasis on receiving and issuing force. Even mechanics don't really vary we simply refine movement from Gross Motor to Fine Motor to make it more productive and efficient depending on the need. Unless someone has an extra joint or lack of one, we all fundamentally move the same. Refinement of the same mechanics and proper use is what sets it apart when applied.

 

[dlcox]

"The art of Wck has hard body long fist and soft body short strike in both front , side, back, three general position. Side body position alone is partial and a limitation. Go try out with a well train western boxer or kyokushin K1 type and see how will it work or not. Imho, It is more likely to be Someone's creative story then leung jan , assume Leong jan is an expert.

I am well aware that Yongchun covers all the ranges and that one method alone, Side Body or Front Facing, are by themselves limited. Your response to my statement is out of context. He EMPHASIZED side body as a means of neutralizing a stronger opponent, not that he didn't also teach the front facing in Gulao. This exact analogy is represented in the video of Sergio using sensitivity and side body movement to absorb and return. So I don't see what your getting at, unless it's to refute what Sergio is doing. Besides what I was referring to was Preference of movement and technique and how that cannot be used for reliable confirmation of a link to origin. BTW this story was also confirmed by two Gulao practitioners, one of whom is Jim Roselando.

Another thing is this whole "Engine" talk, there is only one "Engine" what differs is the mechanics involved. There is no such thing as "Internal" or "External" , "Soft" or "Hard" these are simply labels used to define emphasis on receiving and issuing force. Even mechanics don't really vary we simply refine movement from Gross Motor to Fine Motor to make it more productive and efficient depending on the need. Unless someone has an extra joint or lack of one, we all fundamentally move the same. Refinement of the same mechanics and proper use is what sets it apart when applied.

 

[Hendrik]

"I am well aware that Yongchun covers all the ranges and that one method alone, Side Body or Front Facing, are by themselves limited. Your response to my statement is out of context. He EMPHASIZED side body as a means of neutralizing a stronger opponent, not that he didn't also teach the front facing in Gulao.


This exact analogy is represented in the video of Sergio using sensitivity and side body movement to absorb and return. So I don't see what your getting at, unless it's to refute what Sergio is doing. "


You have missed my point totally because you don't know what I mean by short strike and long fist , nor the soft body Sergio has developed.

Anyone who is interested can compare Sergio 2014 and 2015 utubes and figure out what is there not in 2014 to find out.



"Besides what I was referring to was Preference of movement and technique and how that cannot be used for reliable confirmation of a link to origin. BTW this story was also confirmed by two Gulao practitioners, one of whom is Jim Roselando.

"


I know Jim art very well and his art be it in yik kam and Pin San doesn't have the soft body short strike as Sergio has.




"Another thing is this whole "Engine" talk, there is only one "Engine" what differs is the mechanics involved.

There is no such thing as "Internal" or "External" , "Soft" or "Hard" these are simply labels used to define emphasis on receiving and issuing force.

Even mechanics don't really vary we simply refine movement from Gross Motor to Fine Motor to make it more productive and efficient depending on the need. Unless someone has an extra joint or lack of one, we all fundamentally move the same. Refinement of the same mechanics and proper use is what sets it apart when applied."


Just because one don't know, doesn't mean there is non exist.

Seriously, if one don't have it develop and not go that deep in one attainment . One simply will not know.

 

[zuti car]

Dear Hendrik , no one needs

 

[kung fu fighter]

Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method.

I've never heard this, can you please cite the source of this information?? I know Fung Family Kulo wck so contain both front and side body methods, in fact from what I understand it was the Hong Kong wck practioners that named it side body due to the fact that the pin san wck people used more side body position than their HK wing chun counterpart.

Another thing is this whole "Engine" talk, there is only one "Engine" what differs is the mechanics involved. There is no such thing as "Internal" or "External" , "Soft" or "Hard" these are simply labels used to define emphasis on receiving and issuing force. Even mechanics don't really vary we simply refine movement from Gross Motor to Fine Motor to make it more productive and efficient depending on the need.

Your analogy of Gross motor to Fine Motor to combined Motor only applies to hard body long fist and not the soft body short strike as Sergio is demonstrating in the clip.

They don't understand your question, thus not able to answer you.

If there is power generation, by evidence all of the above lineages are variation of external physical power generation and so no need to read deeper then what doesn't exist. I know Jim art very well and his art be it in yik kam and Pin San doesn't have the soft body short strike as Sergio has.

I agree!

 

[dlcox]

ou have missed my point totally because you don't know what I mean by short strike and long fist , nor the soft body Sergio has developed.

Anyone who is interested can compare Sergio 2014 and 2015 utubes and figure out what is there not in 2014 to find out.

Obviously I don't understand you, just as you don't understand me. As far as Sergio goes I'm sure what he does in 2016 will be different as well.

I know Jim art very well and his art be it in yik kam and Pin San doesn't have the soft body short strike as Sergio has.

No because you and others are feeding Sergio and he is creating something new.

I've never heard this, can you please cite the source of this information?? I know Fung Family Kulo wck so contain both front and side body methods, in fact from what I understand it was the Hong Kong wck practioners that named it side body due to the fact that the pin san wck people used more side body position than their HK wing chun counterpart.

How Do These Wing Chun San Sik from different Wing Chun Compare to each Other

Your analogy of Gross motor to Fine Motor to combined Motor only applies to hard body long fist and not the soft body short strike as Sergio is demonstrating in the clip.

My analogy applies to all human movement.

 

[kung fu fighter]

Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method.
How Do These Wing Chun San Sik from different Wing Chun Compare to each Other
"All WC has Jing Sun and Pin Sun but Pin Sun was just the emphacis of Leung Jan's teaching. He did say while they were similar, and from the same family, the hands differ very little! He was older and he would not be able to teach his new group to fight the nose to nose methods of his original art as well as he did in Futshan. Knowing the time and training it would take to build people he chose to teach/develop a slightly different approach based on his experiences. I tend to believe it was because most arts when they attack will charge straight in so having this experience he prepared them for what would most likely happened but also gave them the core of the straight body since there will times for usage of that. When we learn this art we actually learn the Jing Sun basics before moving onto the PS. The maxim states;

Power in the middle, Attack the side
Weak middle, Attack the center"

No where on that link does does it say "Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method." please cite where you got this???

 

[Kwan Sau]

"All WC has Jing Sun and Pin Sun

The maxim states;

Power in the middle, Attack the side
Weak middle, Attack the center"

Yep!

 

[johnsimmons]

Just to go back to the beginning and some one did post some back ground on our wing chun.

Lo Kwai kept a very full record of what he was being taught by Leung Jan. The family has the original notes etc. they have been handed down directly form Lo Kwai through his relatives. they are in the Chao family martial hall and part of their martial alter.

So while everyone does things a little different due to body type,athletic abilities etc if you get a chance some of us may show you what has been handed down.
I will say our art is a practical art and we are not slaves to it sonot everyone looks exactly alike. In fact the last person to be added to the ranks of official inheritor and placed in the Martial Hall got there based on actual fighting skill and being able to use the two Gings in fighting in front of witnesses. He is the first to admit his form is less than perfect and has influences from wing chun outside the family.

 

[dlcox]

No where on that link does does it say "Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method." please cite where you got this???

This is a quote from Leung Jan from when his students (Wong Wah Sam, Yik Ying, Leung Bak Chung) asked what the difference was between their WC and the WC outside of Koo Lo;
The Wing Chun outside of Koo Lo is the Jing Sun (straight body) "facing" style which is taught in 3 parts, Siu Lin Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee. The Wing Chun of our village is the Pin Sun Wing Chun (side body) style. The hand methods are taught in one part but differ very little from the "facing" style, and are really from the same family. The pole methods of the "facing" style is the Luk Dim Boon Gwun but in our village it is the Som Dim Boon Gwun.
Side (Pien San) and Face (Jing San) are just elements. All classic WCK has both. Personally, I tend to think the larger individuals (Cheung Bo, Fung Liem, and others were either quite muscular or stocky) had a harder time with the facing methods (which thinner folk like Yuen Kay-San, Ng Jung-So and others could excel at), and so favored the flanking method. It's typically Chinese not to take credit for any innovations, so its always back-dated to a famed ancestor, wandering sage, mythic character, etc., and labels are then applied.

He did say while they were similar, and from the same family, the hands differ very little! He was older and he would not be able to teach his new group to fight the nose to nose methods of his original art as well as he did in Futshan. Knowing the time and training it would take to build people he chose to teach/develop a slightly different approach based on his experiences. I tend to believe it was because most arts when they attack will charge straight in so having this experience he prepared them for what would most likely happened but also gave them the core of the straight body since there will times for usage of that

This is what Jim Roselando said, it states basically what I wrote. My other information comes from a friend. I used the information from both sources to form my conclusion, interpret it how you like. If you want answers so badly how about you do the actual leg work and quit antagonizing others until they give it to you.

 

[KPM]

When turning WSL and HKM axis is over their heels, TST's is closer to the center of his feet exactly like yip man does in the black and white footage,YKS/Sum Nung axis is over the K1 point of their feet like in Kulo pin sun wck.

Question for you Joy, what's the benefit of having one's axis over the heels when turning?

Here's the problem. How can you say that YKS and IM shifted over the axis differently when IM seems to have taught to do this in different ways depending on whom and when he was teaching? Ho Kam Ming and Wong Shun Leung may shift with the axis over the heels, yet Leung Sheung and Leung Ting shift with the axis closer to the K1 point. As Navin points out, that final footage of an aging Ip Man seems to show him shifting with the axis close to K1....just like Yuen Kay Shan! When you look at Sum Nun's student's Wing Chun and you look at Mei Gei Wong Wing Chun they are very similar. Wong Nim Yei's father learned from Yuen Kay Shan. No Cheung Bo influence that I've read! When you look at Leung Sheung's current lineage of practitioners, they look a lot like Sum Nun/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun. Again, anyone can believe anything they want. Given the very "flexible" nature of myth-telling and pseudo-history in Gung Fu circles, I tend to go with what seems the most plausible given the available evidence. But also, like I said before, there is probably no real way of knowing and this is all gets entertaining discussion in a forum and doesn't mean much or have much real value.

 

[KPM]

Leung Sheung people like myself also turn closer to the front of their foot.

I think I've heard someone say that Leung Sheung's style shares more characteristics with mainland styles than Yip Man's later Hong Kong students but I haven't studied any other WC styles due to a lack of other WC schools in my area so I don't know if that's true or not. Can anyone confirm this?

From what I have seen, yes this is true. Do a youtube search for Wong Nim Yei/Mei Gei Wong Wing Chun or Sum Nun/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun and see how familiar things seem to you.

 

[Hendrik]

This is a quote from Leung Jan from when his students (Wong Wah Sam, Yik Ying, Leung Bak Chung) asked what the difference was between their WC and the WC outside of Koo Lo;
The Wing Chun outside of Koo Lo is the Jing Sun (straight body) "facing" style which is taught in 3 parts, Siu Lin Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee. The Wing Chun of our village is the Pin Sun Wing Chun (side body) style. The hand methods are taught in one part but differ very little from the "facing" style, and are really from the same family. The pole methods of the "facing" style is the Luk Dim Boon Gwun but in our village it is the Som Dim Boon Gwun.
Side (Pien San) and Face (Jing San) are just elements. All classic WCK has both. Personally, I tend to think the larger individuals (Cheung Bo, Fung Liem, and others were either quite muscular or stocky) had a harder time with the facing methods (which thinner folk like Yuen Kay-San, Ng Jung-So and others could excel at), and so favored the flanking method. It's typically Chinese not to take credit for any innovations, so its always back-dated to a famed ancestor, wandering sage, mythic character, etc., and labels are then applied.

He did say while they were similar, and from the same family, the hands differ very little! He was older and he would not be able to teach his new group to fight the nose to nose methods of his original art as well as he did in Futshan. Knowing the time and training it would take to build people he chose to teach/develop a slightly different approach based on his experiences. I tend to believe it was because most arts when they attack will charge straight in so having this experience he prepared them for what would most likely happened but also gave them the core of the straight body since there will times for usage of that

This is what Jim Roselando said, it states basically what I wrote. My other information comes from a friend. I used the information from both sources to form my conclusion, interpret it how you like. If you want answers so badly how about you do the actual leg work and quit antagonizing others until they give it to you.

One needs to digest to see is it making common sense or not.

Saying

"The Wing Chun outside of Koo Lo is the Jing Sun (straight body) "facing" style which is taught in 3 parts, Siu Lin Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee. The Wing Chun of our village is the Pin Sun Wing Chun (side body) style. "


Really doesn't making any sense but over simplify issues.

1. Leong Jan is not the only person who knows wing chun in that era. He doesn't dictate what is Wck outside Koolo. That is a reality today we can verify with other lineages .

2. It is simply not true that jing sun is taught in 3 parts. Chum kiu and biu Jee has pin sun and jak sun. It is not just jing sun by evidence.

3. This type of catagorization is misleading. I doubt Leong Jan said it eventhough looking at history there is no evidence to support his so called King of Wing Chun kungfu title. Still, he would not be that ignorance to say something which is doesn't make sense in reality.