Leung Jan's original art

[kung fu fighter]

If you want answers so badly how about you do the actual leg work and quit antagonizing others until they give it to you.

I can assure you when it comes to Fung Family kulo Pin Sun wing chun I have done the legwork so I am not speaking out of my A$$. Have you?

This is a quote from Leung Jan from when his students (Wong Wah Sam, Yik Ying, Leung Bak Chung) asked what the difference was between their WC and the WC outside of Koo Lo;
The Wing Chun outside of Koo Lo is the Jing Sun (straight body) "facing" style which is taught in 3 parts, Siu Lin Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee. The Wing Chun of our village is the Pin Sun Wing Chun (side body) style. The hand methods are taught in one part but differ very little from the "facing" style, and are really from the same family. The pole methods of the "facing" style is the Luk Dim Boon Gwun but in our village it is the Som Dim Boon Gwun.
Side (Pien San) and Face (Jing San) are just elements. All classic WCK has both. Personally, I tend to think the larger individuals (Cheung Bo, Fung Liem, and others were either quite muscular or stocky) had a harder time with the facing methods (which thinner folk like Yuen Kay-San, Ng Jung-So and others could excel at), and so favored the flanking method. It's typically Chinese not to take credit for any innovations, so its always back-dated to a famed ancestor, wandering sage, mythic character, etc., and labels are then applied.

He did say while they were similar, and from the same family, the hands differ very little! He was older and he would not be able to teach his new group to fight the nose to nose methods of his original art as well as he did in Futshan. Knowing the time and training it would take to build people he chose to teach/develop a slightly different approach based on his experiences. I tend to believe it was because most arts when they attack will charge straight in so having this experience he prepared them for what would most likely happened but also gave them the core of the straight body since there will times for usage of that

This is what Jim Roselando said, it states basically what I wrote. My other information comes from a friend. I used the information from both sources to form my conclusion, interpret it how you like. If you want answers so badly how about you do the actual leg work and quit antagonizing others until they give it to you.

No what Jim wrote above does not state anything about "Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method" so please stick to facts quoting the source of your information instead of making things and twisting other people's words up to support your view.

 

[dlcox]

No what Jim wrote does not state anything about "Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method" so please stick to facts quoting the source of your information instead of making things and twisting other people's words up to support your view.

This is what I wrote:

It states BASICALLY what I wrote. My other information comes from a friend. I used the information from BOTH sources to form my conclusion, interpret it how you like.

You're the one twisting words to fit your agenda, not me. INTERPRET WHAT JIM HAD TO SAY HOW YOU LIKE! I used Jim's statement to collaborate what my friend stated to me, I formed my conclusion based on the information I received. How is that any different than what anyone else does? Especially Hendrick.

All of this is way off topic. I have no further interest in discussion with beginners.

Good day mate.

 

[kung fu fighter]

This is what I wrote:

It states BASICALLY what I wrote. My other information comes from a friend. I used the information from BOTH sources to form my conclusion, interpret it how you like.

You're the one twisting words to fit your agenda, not me. INTERPRET WHAT JIM HAD TO SAY HOW YOU LIKE! I used Jim's statement to collaborate what my friend stated to me, I formed my conclusion based on the information I received.

There is no room for misinterpretation of what Jim said, I believe it is very clear, ANY FOOL CAN SEE HE DOES NOT STATE BASICALLY WHAT YOU WROTE. In regards to Pin sun wck your conclusion is very misleading and incorrect which tells me your friend doesn't know diddly squat about pin sun wck. This is completely inaccurate "Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method" Perhaps KPM can comment to clarify things since he has studied KLPSWC in depth.

I have no further interest in discussion with beginners.

Good day mate.

Who is the beginner here mate? lol

 

[dlcox]

Hendrik and Kung Fu Fighter as an FYI I have placed you on ignore. I no longer wish to argue with either one of you on your beliefs, its not worth my time. As long as you leave me out of any conversations I will extend the same courtesy to you.

There is no room for misinterpretation of what Jim said, I believe it is very clear, ANY FOOL CAN SEE HE DOES NOT STATE BASICALLY WHAT YOU WROTE. In regards to Pin sun wck your conclusion is very misleading and incorrect which tells me your friend doesn't know diddly squat about pin sun wck. This is completely inaccurate "Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method" Perhaps KPM can comment to clarify things since he has studied KLPSWC in depth.


Who is the beginner here mate? lol

This is what I wrote:

“Liang Zan's emphasis changed in Gulao, instead of facing the opponent he stressed Pian Shen (Side Body). He did this not because he thought it more original, he did it because he was old and wanted to avoid unnecessary contact. Using side body to avoid clashing and use of hard bridge as he knew he could not compete in that fashion with a younger stronger opponent. He stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method.”


This is what Jim wrote:

“The Wing Chun outside of Koo Lo is the Jing Sun (straight body) "facing" style which is taught in 3 parts, Siu Lin Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee. The Wing Chun of our village is the Pin Sun Wing Chun (side body) style. The hand methods are taught in one part but differ very little from the "facing" style, and are really from the same family.”

When I read this I ask myself why the emphasis on side body, what is its purpose?

Here Jim gives a brief explanation, though not in detail.

“He was older and he would not be able to teach his new group to fight the nose to nose methods of his original art as well as he did in Futshan. Knowing the time and training it would take to build people he chose to teach/develop a slightly different approach based on his experiences. I tend to believe it was because most arts when they attack will charge straight in so having this experience he prepared them for what would most likely happened but also gave them the core of the straight body since there will times for usage of that.”

When I see this I, the choice is evident…EVASION. We practice the exact same principle in White Crane as a defensive tactic. As a counter attacking method it works well, it is not a good offensive tactic like Zhong Shen.

Being older Liang Zan would have chosen to soften his method by emphasizing counter attack tactics as compared to offensive rushing tactics. “When the opponent comes I greet him, when he leaves I escort him, when the hands break free rush forward”. I believe he emphasized the first part of this maxim when creating Gulao 40 points. There is a similar progression in White Crane as one advances in training.

Based upon information I received from my friend and my own experiences plus what Jim wrote, I drew an educated conclusion. No I am not an expert in Gulao, but do I have to be? Is it really all that different from any branch of Yongchun coming from Liang Zan?

I wasn’t trying to put words into Jim’s mouth, I simply provided him as one of my references. My friend wishes to remain private so I honor that request and did not provide a citation from him. I only provided what Jim wrote to give you some example, that’s more than more than any of you have. What’s the address to that museum? Hendrik won’t give it up do you know?

You can insult me all you like, twist my words as you see fit. I did not misrepresent anything. It is not my fault that you do not have the capacity to see it as I did. Interpret as you like. I base my conclusions on what I know and what I interpret to be logical. Yes I took a liberal approach, but then again it wasn’t a direct quote was it? How is what I originally wrote all that different from Jim’s statement?

 

[dlcox]

BTW what my friend wrote was along the lines of what Jim wrote, just in more detail. Exactly who are you to say what depth of knowledge my friend has when I never presented what he wrote I simply paraphrased. Are you a lineage holder in Gulao style or are you getting your information from someone else, just like me?

 

[Hendrik]

Lol.

Please leave me out of your discussion.

BtW
I have coached Jim for a decade. I know his art direct from him. Please stop speculate what you don't know and

Stop playing words game.

Also,

Your so called tibetian white crane got nothing to do with Wck , it has no soft body short strike of Wck and doesn't have the internal development of emei 12 zhuang which exist in Wck.

Please not wasting other's time keep arguing what you are clueless

Also, wing Chun is wing Chun, please do not use the term yong Chun to confuse out of everyone.

Yong Chun can be fujian white crane, shao lin Weng Chun .

Hendrik and Kung Fu Fighter as an FYI I have placed you on ignore. I no longer wish to argue with either one of you on your beliefs, its not worth my time. As long as you leave me out of any conversations I will extend the same courtesy to you.


This is what I wrote:

“Liang Zan's emphasis changed in Gulao, instead of facing the opponent he stressed Pian Shen (Side Body). He did this not because he thought it more original, he did it because he was old and wanted to avoid unnecessary contact. Using side body to avoid clashing and use of hard bridge as he knew he could not compete in that fashion with a younger stronger opponent. He stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method.”


This is what Jim wrote:

“The Wing Chun outside of Koo Lo is the Jing Sun (straight body) "facing" style which is taught in 3 parts, Siu Lin Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee. The Wing Chun of our village is the Pin Sun Wing Chun (side body) style. The hand methods are taught in one part but differ very little from the "facing" style, and are really from the same family.”

When I read this I ask myself why the emphasis on side body, what is its purpose?

Here Jim gives a brief explanation, though not in detail.

“He was older and he would not be able to teach his new group to fight the nose to nose methods of his original art as well as he did in Futshan. Knowing the time and training it would take to build people he chose to teach/develop a slightly different approach based on his experiences. I tend to believe it was because most arts when they attack will charge straight in so having this experience he prepared them for what would most likely happened but also gave them the core of the straight body since there will times for usage of that.”

When I see this I, the choice is evident…EVASION. We practice the exact same principle in White Crane as a defensive tactic. As a counter attacking method it works well, it is not a good offensive tactic like Zhong Shen.

Being older Liang Zan would have chosen to soften his method by emphasizing counter attack tactics as compared to offensive rushing tactics. “When the opponent comes I greet him, when he leaves I escort him, when the hands break free rush forward”. I believe he emphasized the first part of this maxim when creating Gulao 40 points. There is a similar progression in White Crane as one advances in training.

Based upon information I received from my friend and my own experiences plus what Jim wrote, I drew an educated conclusion. No I am not an expert in Gulao, but do I have to be? Is it really all that different from any branch of Yongchun coming from Liang Zan?

I wasn’t trying to put words into Jim’s mouth, I simply provided him as one of my references. My friend wishes to remain private so I honor that request and did not provide a citation from him. I only provided what Jim wrote to give you some example, that’s more than more than any of you have. What’s the address to that museum? Hendrik won’t give it up do you know?

You can insult me all you like, twist my words as you see fit. I did not misrepresent anything. It is not my fault that you do not have the capacity to see it as I did. Interpret as you like. I base my conclusions on what I know and what I interpret to be logical. Yes I took a liberal approach, but then again it wasn’t a direct quote was it? How is what I originally wrote all that different from Jim’s statement?

 

[dlcox]

Lol.

Please leave me out of your discussion.

BtW
I have coached Jim for a decade. I know his art direct from him. Please stop speculate what you don't know and

Stop playing words game.

Also,

Your so called tibetian white crane got nothing to do with Wck , it has no soft body short strike of Wck and doesn't have the internal development of emei 12 zhuang which exist in Wck.

Please not wasting other's time keep arguing what you are clueless

Also, wing Chun is wing Chun, please do not use the term yong Chun to confuse out of everyone.

Yong Chun can be fujian white crane, shao lin Weng Chun .

1. I speculated nothing.

2. Prove that Tibetan White Crane has nothing to do with Yongchun. Show me independently verified historical documentation that states this.

3. It's interesting that you believe I confuse people by using the term Yongchun.

4. You stated: Your so called tibetian white crane got nothing to do with Wck , it has no soft body short strike of Wck and doesn't have the internal development of emei 12 zhuang which exist in Wck. Are you an expert on Tibetan White Crane? Or did you just watch some videos?

As far as internal development of Yongchun, forged Quan Jue to mislead Fu Wei Zhong, re-written Cho Family Quan Jue to make compatible, historical speculation based on assumption, personal belief, re-written and interpreted oral history and taking bits of information and techniques from Fujian White Crane masters and Emei Qigong DO NOT Yongchun make!

You wouldn't have all this resistance to your "History" and "Theories" if you would have simply stated here is our version of Yongchun, we call it XXX style Yongchun and is based on this.....Instead, you degrade everyone else, call them ignorant of the "Truth" and claim to have "Found" the "Real Ancestral DNA" of Yongchun. That everyone else's Yongchun is inferior and incomplete based on your findings and that if they would only buy a book or attend a seminar could obtain what their teachers lacked. Nothing but hubris brother. You don't have the "Secret Sauce" anymore than Chi Sim Weng Chun, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun, Chan Family Wing Chun, Pan Nam Wing Chun, Cho Gar Wing Chun, Yuan Kay San Wing Chun or any other style that crawled out of the woodwork to usurp the popularity of Yip Man Wing Chun. It's all just another marketing scheme. Bugger off!

 

[Marnetmar]

The two of you seem like pleasant individuals.

 

[zuti car]

Hendrik has incredible ability to make people angry , but it easy to stop him . Basically there are two ways , first , don't pay attention to his nonsense or offer him to meet and compare the arts trough chi sao or sparring , If you do the second thing he even may call FBI or something ( I am nit very familiar with U.S. police services )

 

[Vajramusti]

Hendrik has incredible ability to make people angry , but it easy to stop him . Basically there are two ways , first , don't pay attention to his nonsense or offer him to meet and compare the arts trough chi sao or sparring , If you do the second thing he even may call FBI or something ( I am nit very familiar with U.S. police services )

---------------------------
He does not make me angry- just bored and somewhat sad.

 

[Eric_H]

---------------------------
He does not make me angry- just bored and somewhat sad.

+1

 

[yak sao]

...... If you do the second thing he even may call FBI or something ( I am nit very familiar with U.S. police services )

We usually just let this guy settle all of our MA disputes

 

[zuti car]

We usually just let this guy settle all of our MA disputes

View attachment 19266

In that case I offer my sincere apologies to your MA community for everything I have ever said or even thought

 

[Vajramusti]

We usually just let this guy settle all of our MA disputes

View attachment 19266

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His spinning sidekicks takes care of everything!!

 

[yak sao]

In that case I offer my sincere apologies to your MA community for everything I have ever said or even thought

You seem like a decent enough guy, we'll let it pass this time.....but he's watching you

 

[Vajramusti]

You seem like a decent enough guy, we'll let it pass this time.....but he's watching you

===========================

I am trembling......

 

[jhexx]

 

[Pat M]

An interesting overall discussion.
I know little about the geniology of Wing Chun however given the minimal recorded information on this matter I don't think I'm alone.

Great topic and until recently very cordial.

Secondarily, I an not taking on any Texas Ranger.

 

[Vajramusti]

An interesting overall discussion.
I know little about the geniology of Wing Chun however given the minimal recorded information on this matter I don't think I'm alone.

Great topic and until recently very cordial.

Secondarily, I an not taking on any Texas Ranger.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oklahoma was my first state in the US.Once upon a time The Oklahoma guard stared down the Texas rangers over the Red River related boundary. So-
no problem The Sooner- UT rivalry remains.

 

[Marnetmar]

From what I have seen, yes this is true. Do a youtube search for Wong Nim Yei/Mei Gei Wong Wing Chun or Sum Nun/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun and see how familiar things seem to you.

I suppose a better question for me to ask is how is Yip Man's later students' Wing Chun different from his older students' Wing Chun? There's no other WC schools in my area so it's hard for me to gauge that