Leung Jan's original art

[zuti car]

Leung Jan was the most famous Wing Chun practitioner of all times , on the other hand , we don't know anything about his original art . He had some 10 or 12 students but most of them didn't passed their arts to the next generation . Only one who opened a school and taught wing chun was Chan Wah Shun , but we do not know how his art looked like either . Chan's student Ng Chan So taught a student in Foshan but he mixed his art with Yuen Chan Wan's style . Chan's son Chan Yiu Min obviously mixed his art with some other southern style ( probably Hung Gar) . And of course , there is Yip Man and his "Leung Bik" story , but his students admitted that this story was nothing more than a marketing strategy common at the time ,in fact Yip Man's wing chun share more similarities with Yuen Kai San style than any other .
It is also important to say that fame and popularity for Leung Jan came long after his death ,he became a character of pulp fiction novels and most of the "facts" about him can be traced to these cheap pocket books , we actually have very little real details about his life . Documents or other evidence about Leung Jan and his life before second part of the republican era do not exist . Is it possible to to reconstruct or somehow trace the original art of Leung Jan ?

 

[dlcox]

Leung Jan was the most famous Wing Chun practitioner of all times , on the other hand , we don't know anything about his original art . He had some 10 or 12 students but most of them didn't passed their arts to the next generation . Only one who opened a school and taught wing chun was Chan Wah Shun , but we do not know how his art looked like either . Chan's student Ng Chan So taught a student in Foshan but he mixed his art with Yuen Chan Wan's style . Chan's son Chan Yiu Min obviously mixed his art with some other southern style ( probably Hung Gar) . And of course , there is Yip Man and his "Leung Bik" story , but his students admitted that this story was nothing more than a marketing strategy common at the time ,in fact Yip Man's wing chun share more similarities with Yuen Kai San style than any other .
It is also important to say that fame and popularity for Leung Jan came long after his death ,he became a character of pulp fiction novels and most of the "facts" about him can be traced to these cheap pocket books , we actually have very little real details about his life . Documents or other evidence about Leung Jan and his life before second part of the republican era do not exist . Is it possible to to reconstruct or somehow trace the original art of Leung Jan ?

Any real historical information that would lend credence to Liang Zan's art of Yongchun Quan would be found with his father. The Liang family ran a military school (I believe in Foshan) where martial arts were taught. If any historical roots are to be found, it would be connected to this school that his father ran and the conflicts that they were involved in during the early 1800's.

Yongchun Bai He Quan was most likely an influence given that verifiable Opera performers like Li Wen Mao and Dai Fa Mian Jin were reputed to be practitioners of Yongchun Bai He Quan, some say Liang Yi Dai was as well. If Yongchun Bai He Quan was taught at the Liang academy it was undoubtedly altered, if not then what was taught on the Red Boats was simply Yongchun Bai He Quan and whatever was taught at the Liang academy was mixed with it to create what was to become Yongchun.

Without knowing what was taught at the Liang academy it is all speculation. I'm sure that some documentation exists somewhere, the name of a drill master, style or something. If anyone has the means to investigate I'm sure that there is some form of documentation as most certainly the Qing government would have known of the Liang family military school. It could potentially solve a big piece of the puzzle.

 

[Marnetmar]

Actually, we do have a glimpse at CWS's style.

In addition, Leung Jan's Gulao village system could give some insight although it's not exactly what he taught in Foshan:

There's some Chi Sau demonstrated in this video that kind of resembles Tai Chi push-hands in a way, kind of like the Pan Nam/Pao Fa Lien/Weng Chun systems.

 

[KPM]

Leung Jan was the most famous Wing Chun practitioner of all times , on the other hand , we don't know anything about his original art . He had some 10 or 12 students but most of them didn't passed their arts to the next generation . Only one who opened a school and taught wing chun was Chan Wah Shun

That's not exactly true. Another student...Wong Wah Sam...taught multiple people in Gu Lao village. While what Wong taught was not Leung's "original art" in the sense of the same curriculum, I think it was the same art as far as body structure and "flavor." So we can get a lot clues about what Leung's "original art" might have been like simply by looking at Pin Sun Wing Chun. And those clues suggest it wasn't that much different from Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun.

 

[dlcox]

That's not exactly true. Another student...Wong Wah Sam...taught multiple people in Gu Lao village. While what Wong taught was not Leung's "original art" in the sense of the same curriculum, I think it was the same art as far as body structure and "flavor." So we can get a lot clues about what Leung's "original art" might have been like simply by looking at Pin Sun Wing Chun. And those clues suggest it wasn't that much different from Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun.

Hi Keith,

I can see both of you and Zuti's points, but we also have to take into consideration the alterations that may have occurred with the lines you presented. It is suspected that either Chan Yiu Min, his wife (who changed the character Yong from Eternal to Beautiful based on her research) or his son altered the art by adding in some other southern art such as Hongjia Quan. Wong Wah Sam is said to have been a practitioner of several southern arts which he blended with Liang Zan's art to create the 12 points. Neither art is that far off IMO from the prototype, but I think that if one is to see what the art was comprised of prior to Liang Zan codifying it we need to look at the Military academy. This is where Liang Zan "Cut His Teeth", so to speak and would undoubtedly have been a major influence into the development of Yongchun. This academy is where many from Fujian came to train in military tactics. Martial arts were taught there and it was owned and operated by the Liang family.

One thing that I find interesting is that the original transmission of Yongchun Bai He Quan was said to be in Sanshi format and Liang Zan passed on his last version of Yongchun in Sanshi format. Sanshi was a traditional method of instruction in the Chinese military. Both methods were employed by militias in several conflicts of the region. Aside from the obvious origins connection between the two, there has to be a link to a person (aside from Liang Zan) or organization that influenced Yongchun's development. My guess would be that this occurred in the Liang family academy, as all oral evidence concerning Liang Zan leads back there prior to the Red Boats.

 

[zuti car]

Actually, we do have a glimpse at CWS's style.

[

In addition, Leung Jan's Gulao village system could give some insight although it's not exactly what he taught in Foshan:

.

Like I said , Chan Yiu Min mixed his art with some other southern art to a level where it can hardly be called Wing Chun any more . As for Kolo system , I don't know much about it but some of my friends from Hong Kong who are involved in Wing Chun for a very long time told me that Kolo version of the art changed tremendously in content recent decades , actually since the time Chine "opened" and people started to show interest in that particular style .

 

[zuti car]

That's not exactly true. Another student...Wong Wah Sam...taught multiple people in Gu Lao village. While what Wong taught was not Leung's "original art" in the sense of the same curriculum, I think it was the same art as far as body structure and "flavor." So we can get a lot clues about what Leung's "original art" might have been like simply by looking at Pin Sun Wing Chun. And those clues suggest it wasn't that much different from Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun.

I believe Yuen Kai San's version of the art is the purest one in a sense of not adopting things from other southern styles

 

[dlcox]

Oooops! sorry Keith. Part of my post was directed at Marnetmar.

 

[geezer]

I believe Yuen Kai San's version of the art is the purest one in a sense of not adopting things from other southern styles

The operative word here is "belief". In the OP you asked, "Is it possible to reconstruct or somehow trace the original art of Leung Jan?" the answer is no. We can only speculate.

Besides there is no such thing as an original or "purest" form of the art. Each great master we have knowledge of made significant changes in what and how they taught during their lifetimes. In some cases these were improvements, in others, perhaps not. Historical research and speculation certainly has it's value, but personally I look forwards as well as backwards in my individual search for the best Wing Chun. To be honest, I haven't the ability to master half of what I've learned in my own branch of the Yip Man lineage from my old sifu.

 

[zuti car]

The operative word here is "belief". In the OP you asked, "Is it possible to reconstruct or somehow trace the original art of Leung Jan?" the answer is no. We can only speculate.

Besides there is no such thing as an original or "purest" form of the art. Each great master we have knowledge of made significant changes in what and how they taught during their lifetimes. In some cases these were improvements, in others, perhaps not. Historical research and speculation certainly has it's value, but personally I look forwards as well as backwards in my individual search for the best Wing Chun. To be honest, I haven't the ability to master half of what I've learned in my own branch of the Yip Man lineage from my old sifu.

That is what I wrote , I believe , I do not know, I base my opinion on some evidence and logic, but i cannot say anything for sure. I was also clear about purity , pure in a sense of not mixing wing chun with other arts , not in a sense of some original form of the art , because I totally agree with you that every lineage founder( I don't like word master or grandmaster) made significant changes to his art.

 

[geezer]

That is what I wrote , I believe , I do not know, I base my opinion on some evidence and logic, but i cannot say anything for sure.

No problem, Zuti. Your statements seem reasoned and nothing like the over-the top claimes of a certain "researcher" who has posted here in the past.

I was also clear about purity , pure in a sense of not mixing wing chun with other arts , not in a sense of some original form of the art...

Purity is another questionable concept that can only be taken so far. As you have pointed out, even "pure" WC emerged from other arts. The so-called "pure" WC from the mid 19th Century may well have roots in older arts such as Wing Chun Bak Hok (Yongchun Bai He) and have been later influenced by a number of southern Chinese fighting arts, the Hakka systems and so on. Certainly in more recent times, prominent practitioners have "borrowed what is useful" long before Bruce Lee made that a catchphrase.

I totally agree with you that every lineage founder( I don't like word master or grandmaster) made significant changes to his art .

I agree that titles like "Grandmaster" have become overused to the poing of inspiring a negative reaction, especially when used outside of one's own lineage. The simple descriptive term "master" as in a master carpenter, musician, etc. doesn't offend me personally, but I can definitely understand your response. Perhaps more neutral terms like "prominent practitioner", or "influential teacher" would be better choices.

 

[zuti car]

Purity is another questionable concept that can only be taken so far. As you have pointed out, even "pure" WC emerged from other arts. The so-called "pure" WC from the mid 19th Century may well have roots in older arts such as Wing Chun Bak Hok (Yongchun Bai He) and have been later influenced by a number of southern Chinese fighting arts, the Hakka systems and so on. Certainly in more recent times, prominent practitioners have "borrowed what is useful" long before Bruce Lee made that a catchphrase.
.

Origin of wing chun will probably stay undiscovered , on the other hand I can say with a lot of certainty that largest portion of the art has its root in White Crane . I am practicing Zonghequan for more than a year now and if would write a description of basic principles and concepts of Zonghe without saying a name of the art , no one could say whether I talk about wing chun or Zonghe because both art share almost the same basic concepts . Expression of these concepts is different but both arts must have same origin , because it is impossible , at least that is what I think, that two completely separate arts share such a level of similarity .

If you watch this old footage of kolo wing chun , around 1:25 there is a short demo of their chi sao , now what I see here is white crane body structure , slightly modified and white crane chi sao .

 

[KPM]

It is suspected that either Chan Yiu Min, his wife (who changed the character Yong from Eternal to Beautiful based on her research) or his son altered the art by adding in some other southern art such as Hongjia Quan.

---Yes. I don't think anyone believes that Chan Yiu Min's art is what Leung Jan taught to Chan Wah Shun.

Wong Wah Sam is said to have been a practitioner of several southern arts which he blended with Liang Zan's art to create the 12 points.

---That's not what they say in Gu Lao village! The story is that Wong Wah Sam had some rudimentary martial arts training but that Leung Jan was his primary teacher by far. Fung Lim is the guy that traveled and studied widely before returning home to Gu Lao and combining things with his village art. This is the time it is said that the knives were added and we had the "public versions" or breakouts like the 22 Point version and the 40 Point version. But in Gu Lao they have always said that Fung Chun was teaching what was taught to him by Wong Wah Sam who taught what was taught to him by Leung Jan.

Neither art is that far off IMO from the prototype, but I think that if one is to see what the art was comprised of prior to Liang Zan codifying it we need to look at the Military academy.

---Probably you are correct! But where are we going to see this? Start talking "military academy" and the Hung Fa Yi guys are going to raise there hands and start saying..."me!, me!, call on me!" ;-) But I don't think any of use would propose that what Leung Jan did was similar to HFY!


One thing that I find interesting is that the original transmission of Yongchun Bai He Quan was said to be in Sanshi format and Liang Zan passed on his last version of Yongchun in Sanshi format.

---Yes, and therefore one logical conclusion could be that when Leung Jan taught in Gu Lao village he returned to the "original" Wing Chun as he had learned it early on, prior to the Red Boats! So we are still left with having Gu Lao Wing Chun as our biggest clue to what Leung Jan's method might have been like.

 

[KPM]

Let me also add that the clip of Fung Chun that has been posted here is not very representative of actual Gu Lao Pin Sun Wing Chun. This was filmed during one of Leung Ting's visits many years ago. Back then the Gu Lao guys were still very secretive. Fung Chun essentially showed Leung Ting what he though Leung Ting wanted to see! What LT wrote in is "Roots & Branches" book is also not very accurate! You will note that in the clip Fung Chun is stringing several of the short sets together to make it look close to the Ip man SNT form. He is also pulling both hands back to his chest like in Ip Man WCK. Pin Sun does not typically do this. The Chi sau section with the guys in a low squat? I'm not sure what that was! Not something I have seen in actual Pin Sun WCK!

 

[Eric_H]

---Probably you are correct! But where are we going to see this? Start talking "military academy" and the Hung Fa Yi guys are going to raise there hands and start saying..."me!, me!, call on me!" ;-) But I don't think any of use would propose that what Leung Jan did was similar to HFY!

Is that supposed to be an insult or something?

*IF* the TWC official Leung Bik story is true (and YM's sons have added weight to their father giving credit to learning things from Leung Bik, I'll leave what it was open to debate) it'd explain why TWC and HFY tend to look more alike than HFY and Moy Yat's WC for example. I just don't know what alive today you would use as representative of "Leung Jan's WC" being the three branches coming from him are so vastly different.

 

[Marnetmar]

Uhh hasn't it basically been confirmed that Leung Bik never existed and the whole Leung Bik story originated out of the Yip family having a feud with the Yuen family or something like that?

 

[Vajramusti]

Uhh hasn't it basically been confirmed that Leung Bik never existed and the whole Leung Bik story originated out of the Yip family having a feud with the Yuen family or something like that?

No

 

[Kwan Sau]

One thing that I find interesting is that the original transmission of Yongchun Bai He Quan was said to be in Sanshi format and Liang Zan passed on his last version of Yongchun in Sanshi format. Sanshi was a traditional method of instruction in the Chinese military. Both methods were employed by militias in several conflicts of the region.

So, are "points" (ie. 12 points, or 22 points) the same as saying 'sanshi'? Is Sanshi the same as saying 'san sik' or 'san sao'? Thanks in advance for any clarification.

 

[zuti car]

Let me also add that the clip of Fung Chun that has been posted here is not very representative of actual Gu Lao Pin Sun Wing Chun. This was filmed during one of Leung Ting's visits many years ago. Back then the Gu Lao guys were still very secretive. Fung Chun essentially showed Leung Ting what he though Leung Ting wanted to see! What LT wrote in is "Roots & Branches" book is also not very accurate! You will note that in the clip Fung Chun is stringing several of the short sets together to make it look close to the Ip man SNT form. He is also pulling both hands back to his chest like in Ip Man WCK. Pin Sun does not typically do this. The Chi sau section with the guys in a low squat? I'm not sure what that was! Not something I have seen in actual Pin Sun WCK!

Now you are doing the same thing as some other people we have seen over the years , "this is not real thing , no one know the real thing , this is deliberately performed wrong" . Maybe it was perfirmed in an unusual way but chi sao session is definitely white crane . Like I said before , some of my friends from Hong Kong who are involved in Wing Chun for a very long time said to me tat Kolo wing chun changed a lot in last couple of decades modernized in a way to look more attractive , stuff they didn't have before are added (like butterfly swords) , their history changed ,ect. This is completely normal for China(not only for China) and I have see this so many times before . On the other hand , this not the only wing chun that have strong White Crane flavor , Pao Fa Lien , not HK brunch , but the version from Fosan also look like Crane a lot

PFL

White Crane

 

[zuti car]

Uhh hasn't it basically been confirmed that Leung Bik never existed and the whole Leung Bik story originated out of the Yip family having a feud with the Yuen family or something like that?

Yup , Leung Bik story was created by Leung Sheung and Yip Man in order to give more credibility to Yip Man's wing chun . Connecting a particular style to some famous ancestor who had some superior skill and knowledge is usual thing in CMA , people on the east do not take this things so seriously as do people on the west . Leung Bik is another legendary character , like Ng Mui or Bai Mei . There is no evidence of Leung Bik's existence , no photos, no documents of any kind ( birth or death certificate , tax records, passport , personal ID , nothing) . Leung Bik supposed to live in republican China so it would be easy to find at last some records of him . Even more , Leung Bik was never mentioned by anyone who lived in during his supposed life time , there is no mention of him in personal records or correspondence ,also no mention of him in any other record connected, or even separate from wing chun . This kinds of stories are made with certain purpose , to give people a feeling of exclusiveness , to make them feel better , special because they are doing something other people don't .