Leung Jan's original art

[Vajramusti]

Hi KPM,

i am sorry, that is not correct. Father ("Mai Gei Wong" Wong Wu Fong) of my teacher (Wong Nim Yi) has at first trained with Kwok Wan Ping, who was at that time student of Wong Jing and today is living in Hong Kong, who introduced him to Wong Jing. Later Kwok Wan Ping started with Sam Nang. "Mai Gei Wong" later started learn from Sam Nang too (more Wong Jings students, some of them later learned from "Mai Gei Wong") and later from several others (Pan Chao to name one of them), but not Yun Key Saan...
So no wonder there are similar (Mai Gei Wong and Sam Nang) in their WingChun...
I know, that is not about Yun Key Saans wingchun but Leung Jaans, but - i am always during all my trips to China/Fatsaan, Gwongjau since 1993 looking for oldtimers of Wing Chun, but other styles too and ask many questions. So we have met other student of Yun Key Saan in Fatsaan (probably his last one. Last year he passed away, but still have video interview and contact with his son, family and students). They use to practice different then Sam Nang. He told us, he has : "no idea where he (Sam Nang) learned his art, but Yun Key Saan taught different"... You can see it after few second of practice.

Sorry for offtopic to "Leung Jans original art"...

many greetings,
IR

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From what I gather Sum Nun like many sifus had an ego .He was not a happy, I gather, that his art was called YKS wing chun because he made his contributions to his art. When the well known webmaster of YKS wing chun went to meet Sum Nun- he was given an earful on this.Presto- soon after that the website was changed with the label Sum Nun wing chun.No criticism intended.

 

[Jens]

Hi KPM,

We have met other student of Yun Key Saan in Fatsaan (probably his last one. Last year he passed away, but still have video interview and contact with his son, family and students). They use to practice different then Sam Nang. He told us, he has : "no idea where he (Sam Nang) learned his art, but Yun Key Saan taught different"... You can see it after few second of practice.

Hi Ivan,
Whats the name of the gentleman you are referring to here that Learnt directly from YKS, is it Leung Ngau?

 

[ivanr]

Hi Ivan,
Whats the name of the gentleman you are referring to here that Learnt directly from YKS, is it Leung Ngau?

Hi Jens,
no, it is not Leung Ngau (nephew of Yun Key Saans wife), but I know him too and I know who you mean..

Sorry, i do not want to name him for now. First, i stoped to give any detailed info about most of my friends and masters in China after BAD experiences in past, and second i do not know if family agree. But in April i will be again there, will ask his son and wife and if not problem, will show some footages and info about him if someone is interested.

 

[Jens]

In April i will be again there, will ask his son and wife and if not problem, will show some footages and info about him if someone is interested.

Thanks Ivan, that would be great, I am sure many on here will appreciate it. I know I will.

 

[Nobody Important]

Wish Dave would post here still...he seemed like a very knowledgeable individual.

This was a good thread.

He was banned.

I'll see if I can channel him,

 

[Nobody Important]

Yes. Dave's style was Tibetan White Crane. But he had researched and was very knowledgeable about Fujian White Crane as well. His info about Leung Jan's family running a military academy is something I thought Guy might find interesting. I'm not sure what Dave's source is, because I've never heard that information from anywhere else.

Dave also does Vietnamese Wing Chun. This gives him a somewhat unique perspective and interesting things to say! I wish he still came around as well!

The story of the Leung family military academy is verified in the new book by Judkins & Nielsen titled The History of Wing Chun. Leung Jan's father was a physician & the Leung clan were merchants. Aligned with the Hung Mun, they opened one of the many Yi halls, based on the original Zong Yi association. Here Wing Chun & Hung Gar were taught side by side.

Interestingly enough, Lam Sai Wing's grandfather taught him Red Boat Hung Gar prior to him learning from Wong Fei Hung. Red Boat Hung Gar consisted of the Arrow Palm form, 6 1/2 Point pole & Heung Yuet double knives. It is said to be a system very similar to Wing Chun. Lam Sai Wing incorporated it into the Hung Gar he learned from Wong Fei Hung to create the Lam Family style of Hung Gar.

Most likely that this Red Boat Hung Gar was formulated in one of Foshan's many Yi association halls. Even possibly the Leung family academy, though no one is certain. Having seen this system it is very similar to Hung Fa Yi style, as Hung Fa Yi was one of Foshan's many Yi association halls.

It's interesting, unfortunately little more is known about who actually taught at these halls or exactly what was taught beyond the vague terms Wing Chun & Hung Gar. I suspect that is where lineage histories actually come into play.

In truth, currently Wing Chun cannot be verified beyond Foshan, as no documentation has yet been verified. There are stories but they are just that until they can be collaborated.

As far as what was actually taught we only have what Leung Jan said existed. San Sik from Leung Yi Tai & forms from Wong Wah Bo. We have to assume these two men were the instructors at some point for the Leung Family martial academy. In Leung Jan's own words the system of Wing Chun was originally loose technique. So Kuluo is most likely the most original method.

According to oral history, Leung Jan said Wong Wah Bo created the forms. Leung Yi Tai says that the San Sik came from White Crane as taught by opera performer Li Wen Mao.

White Crane shares the same oral history as Hung Gar and is most likely why they were paired together. Here in this pairing, is where the branches not coming from Leung Jan occur. Doesn't make them any less original, as we really don't know what Leung Yi Tai actually passed down. We only have what Leung Jan says he did. Until a another lineage of Leung Yi Tai arises, who has no affiliation with Leung Jan, we don't exactly know what original Wing Chun looked like.

Our only course is to compare Kuluo with White Crane, problem is White Crane has gone through many revisions. When Tai Chi was introduced to the south in the early part of the 1900's. The internal theory was introduced and the art of White Crane was made more internal. Too hard to sort out what is what without verified documentation of the era.

 

[wckf92]

This was a good thread.

He was banned.

I'll see if I can channel him,

haha...sounds good N.I. And let me know if you do channel him....because, if I recall correctly, he is somewhere here in the eastern US. Would like to maybe do a meet up. Thanks man!

 

[guy b]

The story of the Leung family military academy is verified in the new book by Judkins & Nielsen titled The History of Wing Chun.

Ok

Leung Jan's father was a physician & the Leung clan were merchants. Aligned with the Hung Mun, they opened one of the many Yi halls, based on the original Zong Yi association. Here Wing Chun & Hung Gar were taught side by side.

Judkins is not a supporter of the idea that anti Qing rebels were hanging around in 1850s Foshan, for good reason. Why would you accept the idea of the Leung military academy from Judkins, but then superimpose your own completely different idea about what it was teaching and why?

 

[Nobody Important]

Ok



Judkins is not a supporter of the idea that anti Qing rebels were hanging around in 1850s Foshan, for good reason. Why would you accept the idea of the Leung military academy from Judkins, but then superimpose your own completely different idea about what it was teaching and why?

I never mentioned anti Ching rebels, I said there was an alignment with Hung Mun. During these times if you weren't a member of one of these societies you would be subject to extortion and also viewed as a Ching sympathizer, stated in the book. Mainly the Leung academy was an armed escort service. The Yi academies were based on the original Zong Yi academy, which was anti Ching. Later these schools would be the main rival of the Ching Woo association. Interesting fact is that the government sought to completely eliminate all existence of the Zong Yi schools because of their activities. This is also mentioned in the book. Now logic dictates that there was some government subversion going on with some of these groups, some are even documented, never did I mention that anyone was a rebel or that Wing Chun was involved in anti government activities, though it is documented the the Opera was, but that was largely a tax revolt and not anti Ching. What was taught at these Yi academies in Foshan was Wing Chun & Hung Gar, also stated in the book, so Judkins & Nielsen confirmed it, I didn't superimpose anything. So either they are contradicting themselves or that's what was taught. Oral histories tell us that was what was taught and some documents of the era state that was what was taught. I don't find it hard to believe. This isn't my story, if you find issue with it take it up with the authors.

 

[guy b]

I never mentioned anti Ching rebels, I said there was an alignment with Hung Mun. During these times if you weren't a member of one of these societies you would be subject to extortion and also viewed as a Ching sympathizer, stated in the book. Mainly the Leung academy was an armed escort service. The Yi academies were based on the original Zong Yi academy, which was anti Ching. Later these schools would be the main rival of the Ching Woo association. Interesting fact is that the government sought to completely eliminate all existence of the Zong Yi schools because of their activities. This is also mentioned in the book.

You are getting your dates confused. In 1850s Foshan anything even vaguely associated with rebellion was being rounded up and executed. Alignment with Hung Mun at that time would be insane and would lead to almost certain death. If the Leung family had a "miltary academy" then it must have been one that the government were happy with, i.e. pro Qing.

Most likely that this Red Boat Hung Gar was formulated in one of Foshan's many Yi association halls. Even possibly the Leung family academy, though no one is certain. Having seen this system it is very similar to Hung Fa Yi style, as Hung Fa Yi was one of Foshan's many Yi association halls.

He mentions Yi association again at a much later date. In 1850s Foshan any connection to such societies or "red boats" would be a death sentence.

The obvious conclusion is that VT had absolutely nothing to do with red boats, opera performers, secret societies, or anti Qing sentiment, and that such ideas are a bit of 20th century romantic storytelling. From what I can gather this is Judkins belief.

 

[Nobody Important]

You are getting your dates confused. In 1850s Foshan anything even vaguely associated with rebellion was being rounded up and executed. Alignment with Hung Mun at that time would be insane and would lead to almost certain death. If the Leung family had a "miltary academy" then it must have been one that the government were happy with, i.e. pro Qing.



He mentions Yi association again at a much later date. In 1850s Foshan any connection to such societies or "red boats" would be a death sentence.

The obvious conclusion is that VT had absolutely nothing to do with red boats, opera performers, secret societies, or anti Qing sentiment, and that such ideas are a bit of 20th century romantic storytelling. From what I can gather this is Judkins belief.

OK, if you say so.

 

[KPM]

This was a good thread.

He was banned.

I'll see if I can channel him,

I don't remember Dave being banned. I think he just decided he didn't have time for forums.

 

[KPM]

haha...sounds good N.I. And let me know if you do channel him....because, if I recall correctly, he is somewhere here in the eastern US. Would like to maybe do a meet up. Thanks man!

He lives in Penn.

 

[KPM]

. Red Boat Hung Gar consisted of the Arrow Palm form, 6 1/2 Point pole & Heung Yuet double knives. It is said to be a system very similar to Wing Chun.

---Now that would be very interesting to see!

Most likely that this Red Boat Hung Gar was formulated in one of Foshan's many Yi association halls. Even possibly the Leung family academy, though no one is certain. Having seen this system it is very similar to Hung Fa Yi style, as Hung Fa Yi was one of Foshan's many Yi association halls.

---I'd be careful drawing that conclusion. I'm still not convinced that HFY's "history" is legit. There are some definite problems there. Garret Gee has quite a martial arts background. Any similarities could simply be of his own creation.


In truth, currently Wing Chun cannot be verified beyond Foshan, as no documentation has yet been verified. There are stories but they are just that until they can be collaborated.

---Very true!

In Leung Jan's own words the system of Wing Chun was originally loose technique. So Kuluo is most likely the most original method.

---I'd say "most original format." But we don't know how much Leung Jan changed things around when he taught in Ku Lo. It was supposed to be the distillation of his own decades of training and fighting experience and not necessarily what he may have learned from Leung Yee Tai. But likely pretty close! Maybe just with his own "finishing touches" or "refinements."


According to oral history, Leung Jan said Wong Wah Bo created the forms. Leung Yi Tai says that the San Sik came from White Crane as taught by opera performer Li Wen Mao.

---That's what makes the most sense to me as well. I asked Sifu Michael Tang about a White Crane connection to Weng Chun. Lee Kong is actually a close friend of his in Hong Kong. But he doesn't believe it. He sticks with the idea that Weng Chun is a condensation or distillation of the Shaolin methods. He doesn't comment on Wing Chun.


Until a another lineage of Leung Yi Tai arises, who has no affiliation with Leung Jan, we don't exactly know what original Wing Chun looked like.

---Part of the oral history of Weng Chun says that Leung Jan and Fung Siu Ching were friends and contemporaries. And that Fung Siu Ching stuck up for Leung Jan in a rivalry with another Weng Chun teacher and settled the dispute by pointing out that they were teaching the same system. Just a story, and likely just made up for a newspaper article. But an interesting tidbit nonetheless. The beginning form of Weng Chun is divided into eleven sections. Each of those 11 sections has a two-man Chi Sau drill that goes with it to teach the concept and application within that section. One could easily see each of those sections being practiced individually as a San Sik. Sounds a bit like Ku Lo WCK, don't you think?

Too hard to sort out what is what without verified documentation of the era.

---Yep. That's the age-old problem that isn't likely to change!

 

[Nobody Important]

I'd be careful drawing that conclusion. I'm still not convinced that HFY's "history" is legit. There are some definite problems there. Garret Gee has quite a martial arts background. Any similarities could simply be of his own creation.

---Red Boat Hung Gar is not the same as Garrett Gee WC though there are simularities. Would agree with you on their version of the history, many things don't add up. The Hung Fa Yi was a real society and Hung Fa Yi was a termed used by many WC people during those times, however I don't believe that a specific style of WC ever held the name. So that is something that still needs investigated.


I'd say "most original format." But we don't know how much Leung Jan changed things around when he taught in Ku Lo. It was supposed to be the distillation of his own decades of training and fighting experience and not necessarily what he may have learned from Leung Yee Tai. But likely pretty close! Maybe just with his own "finishing touches" or "refinements."

---This is very true & I meant to allude to that. Leung Jan almost certainly developed & taught his own interpretation of what he was taught.

That's what makes the most sense to me as well. I asked Sifu Michael Tang about a White Crane connection to Weng Chun. Lee Kong is actually a close friend of his in Hong Kong. But he doesn't believe it. He sticks with the idea that Weng Chun is a condensation or distillation of the Shaolin methods. He doesn't comment on Wing Chun.

----Though I don't share that same belief, for various reasons. I can certainly understand why he wouldn't want to jump into that rabbit hole.

Part of the oral history of Weng Chun says that Leung Jan and Fung Siu Ching were friends and contemporaries. And that Fung Siu Ching stuck up for Leung Jan in a rivalry with another Weng Chun teacher and settled the dispute by pointing out that they were teaching the same system. Just a story, and likely just made up for a newspaper article. But an interesting tidbit nonetheless. The beginning form of Weng Chun is divided into eleven sections. Each of those 11 sections has a two-man Chi Sau drill that goes with it to teach the concept and application within that section. One could easily see each of those sections being practiced individually as a San Sik. Sounds a bit like Ku Lo WCK, don't you think?

---I've heard several versions of this tale, even with different people. The premises is Form vs San Sik in all of them. Generally the Form person stating they are the original & only true method, lol.