Leung Jan's original art
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zuti car
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I am sorry if I led you you to think that my friends are involved in Kolo wing chun , they are not, but WC people in HK know each other , it is not a big community , especially of thous who practice styles out side of Yip Man's brunch . I have just said what I was told and I have no reason to doubt these people .
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Now , there is another question , If we take Kolo wing chun as the closest one to Leung Jan's original teaching , and we know Chan Wah Shun did some similar stuff because his student Ng Chan So did 3 forms style we can se today in Yiu Choi\Yiu Kai system , how come Yip Man's style, and Yip Man learned from CWS nad Ng Chan So is so much different form Kolo WCK or Yiu Choi\Yiu Kai system( mixed with Yun Chai Wan system) and looks closer to YKS more than any other style , on the other hand we have claims that Yip Man's style is the only or at least the best representative of Leung Jan's original art .
Yes, they all basically refer to the same thing.
Kwan Sau
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Thank you!
Is that supposed to be an insult or something?
--No, my apologies Eric. I didn't mean it as an insult at all! I simply meant that if we are going to equate Leung Jan with a military version of Wing Chun, then that fits into HFY's history and opens up a whole other can of worms...so to speak.
*IF* the TWC official Leung Bik story is true (and YM's sons have added weight to their father giving credit to learning things from Leung Bik, I'll leave what it was open to debate) it'd explain why TWC and HFY tend to look more alike than HFY and Moy Yat's WC for example. I just don't know what alive today you would use as representative of "Leung Jan's WC" being the three branches coming from him are so vastly different.
---I agree.
--No, my apologies Eric. I didn't mean it as an insult at all! I simply meant that if we are going to equate Leung Jan with a military version of Wing Chun, then that fits into HFY's history and opens up a whole other can of worms...so to speak.
*IF* the TWC official Leung Bik story is true (and YM's sons have added weight to their father giving credit to learning things from Leung Bik, I'll leave what it was open to debate) it'd explain why TWC and HFY tend to look more alike than HFY and Moy Yat's WC for example. I just don't know what alive today you would use as representative of "Leung Jan's WC" being the three branches coming from him are so vastly different.
---I agree.
Yes. Point is "dim." Another word for the short sets is "san dim" or "separate points." I discovered that most of the Gu Lao people don't like the term "san sik" or "san dim", because it implies just a short movement drill....like doing Bong Sau over and over. This leads to misunderstandings as to what their short sets are actually like.
Kwan Sau
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Thx Keith.
So, they are actually 2 or more movements strung together; drilled over and over? And that constitutes a point or dim...while several points or dim's strung together is more of a classic 'skill drill' concept? Is this an accurate description based on your knowledge of Gu Lao? Thx.
Now you are doing the same thing as some other people we have seen over the years , "this is not real thing , no one know the real thing , this is deliberately performed wrong" .
---Well, this is the problem. The Gu Lao village guys are well known for teaching a "public" version of their system and keeping the "good stuff" in the family. They were known for being very secretive about their art until fairly recently. My first Pin Sun instructor Jim Roselando had a heck of a time trying to figure out what was "authentic" and what was "public version." When Henry Mui first came to the US and opened a public school he arranged the short sets into 3 "forms" because people in the US were already famililar with Ip Man Wing Chun and 3 forms is what they expected to see. Jim was one of Henry Mui's close students early on but even then Mui wasn't openly teaching the "real deal". So it can get rather frustrating and confusing.
Like I said before , some of my friends from Hong Kong who are involved in Wing Chun for a very long time said to me tat Kolo wing chun changed a lot in last couple of decades modernized in a way to look more attractive , stuff they didn't have before are added (like butterfly swords) , their history changed ,ect.
----Thanks for that info! That is very interesting. And again, shows the whole frustration involved in dealing with a culture who have a rather "flexible" sense of history and a tradition of keeping things secret or changing things and claiming it is "original" and taught by some ancestor. It all goes back to one fundamental difference in marketing in the East vs. the West. The favored marketing slogan in the West is..."X is new and improved!" The favored marketing slogan in the East is..."X is authentic and traditional!" Neither claim is ever necessarily true.
---So....I've essentially lost interest in really trying to figure out Wing Chun history or in figuring out how some ancestor (including Ip Man) did his Wing Chun. It may be good for entertainment value, but I don't assign the importance to it that I used to. I'm more interested in what works well and uses good biomechanics. Given the advancements in Sports Science an understanding of biomechanics in modern times, this means this is going to be a lineage that has modified and changed things to keep up with updated knowledge and the ways Wing Chun is likely to be used in modern days. And I have found at least one lineage that does that.....Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun.
---Well, this is the problem. The Gu Lao village guys are well known for teaching a "public" version of their system and keeping the "good stuff" in the family. They were known for being very secretive about their art until fairly recently. My first Pin Sun instructor Jim Roselando had a heck of a time trying to figure out what was "authentic" and what was "public version." When Henry Mui first came to the US and opened a public school he arranged the short sets into 3 "forms" because people in the US were already famililar with Ip Man Wing Chun and 3 forms is what they expected to see. Jim was one of Henry Mui's close students early on but even then Mui wasn't openly teaching the "real deal". So it can get rather frustrating and confusing.
Like I said before , some of my friends from Hong Kong who are involved in Wing Chun for a very long time said to me tat Kolo wing chun changed a lot in last couple of decades modernized in a way to look more attractive , stuff they didn't have before are added (like butterfly swords) , their history changed ,ect.
----Thanks for that info! That is very interesting. And again, shows the whole frustration involved in dealing with a culture who have a rather "flexible" sense of history and a tradition of keeping things secret or changing things and claiming it is "original" and taught by some ancestor. It all goes back to one fundamental difference in marketing in the East vs. the West. The favored marketing slogan in the West is..."X is new and improved!" The favored marketing slogan in the East is..."X is authentic and traditional!" Neither claim is ever necessarily true.
---So....I've essentially lost interest in really trying to figure out Wing Chun history or in figuring out how some ancestor (including Ip Man) did his Wing Chun. It may be good for entertainment value, but I don't assign the importance to it that I used to. I'm more interested in what works well and uses good biomechanics. Given the advancements in Sports Science an understanding of biomechanics in modern times, this means this is going to be a lineage that has modified and changed things to keep up with updated knowledge and the ways Wing Chun is likely to be used in modern days. And I have found at least one lineage that does that.....Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun.
The short sets in Pin Sun are typically at least three different movements together so that the sequence can be practiced over and over. When you get to the 2nd level, each of the short sets at that level also teach a specific footwork method. Each short set will have a two-man drill that goes with it to reinforce the techniques or concepts from the set. Each short set also has a version that is practiced on the dummy. And of course each short set has an application in Chi Sau. So there is much more depth to it than what most non-Pin Sun people mean when they use the term "San Sik."
I think Ip Man WCK looks so close to YKS WCK because Yuen Kay Shan was a much larger influence on him than his students want to admit! And I completely dismiss any claims that Ip Man's style is the best representative of Leung Jan's original art. And how can you say Ip Man's method is "so much different from Kolo WCK" but still so similar to YKS WCK? Other than the organization of the curriculum, most of the differences between Ip Man version and YKS version are the same differences between Ip Man version and Gu Lao version. And these can be attributed to influences on Ip Man from other sources as well as Ip Man's own changes or innovations.
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I agree with Keith,
I feel Kulo pin sun wck is the core blue print of Leung Jan's inner teachings, however,
You guys might also want to have a look into the Lo Kwai chao family wck system, it is said that this system also came from Leung Jan. But i have it from good source that it actually decended from Chan Wah Shun. But never the less it's probably worth investigating. There was a gentleman name Danny chao whom I used to communicate with in Toronto Canada that practiced this system. Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago.
Lo Kwai was an early student of Leung Jan, when he first started teaching in around 1950–1960. He was taught a single hand form with four sections, which Lo Family preserves would be later broken down and refined by Wong and Leung during the Opera ban, into the Wing Chun Kuen system we see today.
Curriculum:
Our kuen kuit are also read in relation to others as well as alone. For example, attack the center control the center destroy the center, refers to attcking the centerline but also is about attcking the center of gravity of the opponent joining to and controlling the center of gravity.
Then we use 18 energies. tao=spit,tun=swallow,fao=raise,chum=sink , mo=touch dong=swing,na =adhere,kum=grasp,lao=leak,tong=press,biu=thrust,zhan=vibrate, huai=spiral,juan=roll,shuai=throw,zhi=straight,dap=join,jui=follow.
Yee Jee Kan Yong Ma is the basic stance. The knees are relaxed. We do not clamp. Breathing is very important and leads to a bounce or a spring in the stance.
The wood man form teaches many concepts such s short power,and how to use the waist ,hips and legs. the sections also teach different concepts. Many re concerned with moving from the inside gates to the outside ,moving from outside to inside. Making the bridge on the outside,making the bridge on the inside.
Also we focus on heaven ,man ,earth or high, mid, low. The dummy and weapons tech how to move from high to low to mid both from outside to inside and inside to outside. We also have methods to fight from the low or earth. this for when you are thrown or swept . The methods deal with bringing the opponent down to the ground or how to get up from the ground.
We use a 9 gate method 3 gates inside the opponents arms and 6 outside the opponents arms. We have no blocks but train covering our exposed gates as we move and how to cover gates based on how the opponent moves.
Our system is made up of the 4 forms SNT,CK, BJ and BGK, the wooden man form, the pole form and the knife form.We have several tests you must pass before you can be said to have completed the training. For example with the knives you must be able to absorb the full force of an attack with a kwan dao without moving or losing your stance or structure. This is to show you have learned how to absorb and direct force into the ground.You must be able to demonstrate the short issuing ging with you arm fully outstretched and palm flat on the target. the arm may not bend and the palm may not move as you issue energy.
The History of Wing Chun According to Lo Kwai - By Chao Tseng-Ming and Brian Scanlon
Leung Yee Tai and Wong Wah Bo. Leung Jan learned 2 different interpretations of wing chun. The small frame from LYT and large frame from WWB. WWB was considered the best fighter of the wing chun group of Opera members. WWB taught 1 form and LYT taught short forms or San Sik.
Leung Jan wanted to combine everything he learned from his 2 Sifu into one complete method. WWB worked with LJ to combine everything into a teachable progressive system. LJ was very educated and wanted to have an organized method for remembering and teaching. The 1 form had 4 parts to it. This was divided into 3+1 forms . This allowed moving of some sections from the begining to the end and allowed the insertion of the material of LYT.
After this the 3 forms of SLT, CK, BJ became more or less set. The Muk Yan Jong, Yee Gee Dao and Look Dim Boon Gwun were not fully set at this point. As they became more set the 4th form was felt to be uneeded as much of what it contained was put into the Jong and Dao. Several san sik came from the 4th form or as some might say the 4th section of the 1 form.
Chan Kwai began learning from Leung Jan . He taught his son and 2 nephews Chao Cheng Lei and Chao Chong Lin. Chao Chong Lin survived and taught his son Chao Jian Yu he taught a few others. His successor was his son Chao Qiang Kwai ( 1904–2003). He had several students including Chao Feng his successor and my father Chao Gang and his last student and only westerner to be taught Hunter von Unschuld. My father and grandfather taught me Chao Tseng-Ming.
I feel Kulo pin sun wck is the core blue print of Leung Jan's inner teachings, however,
You guys might also want to have a look into the Lo Kwai chao family wck system, it is said that this system also came from Leung Jan. But i have it from good source that it actually decended from Chan Wah Shun. But never the less it's probably worth investigating. There was a gentleman name Danny chao whom I used to communicate with in Toronto Canada that practiced this system. Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago.
Lo Kwai was an early student of Leung Jan, when he first started teaching in around 1950–1960. He was taught a single hand form with four sections, which Lo Family preserves would be later broken down and refined by Wong and Leung during the Opera ban, into the Wing Chun Kuen system we see today.
Curriculum:
- Single Form - 4 sections - from Wong Wah Bo
- Muk Yan Jong
- Look Dim Boon Gwun
- Yee Jee Dao
- Hei Gung sets
Our kuen kuit are also read in relation to others as well as alone. For example, attack the center control the center destroy the center, refers to attcking the centerline but also is about attcking the center of gravity of the opponent joining to and controlling the center of gravity.
Then we use 18 energies. tao=spit,tun=swallow,fao=raise,chum=sink , mo=touch dong=swing,na =adhere,kum=grasp,lao=leak,tong=press,biu=thrust,zhan=vibrate, huai=spiral,juan=roll,shuai=throw,zhi=straight,dap=join,jui=follow.
Yee Jee Kan Yong Ma is the basic stance. The knees are relaxed. We do not clamp. Breathing is very important and leads to a bounce or a spring in the stance.
The wood man form teaches many concepts such s short power,and how to use the waist ,hips and legs. the sections also teach different concepts. Many re concerned with moving from the inside gates to the outside ,moving from outside to inside. Making the bridge on the outside,making the bridge on the inside.
Also we focus on heaven ,man ,earth or high, mid, low. The dummy and weapons tech how to move from high to low to mid both from outside to inside and inside to outside. We also have methods to fight from the low or earth. this for when you are thrown or swept . The methods deal with bringing the opponent down to the ground or how to get up from the ground.
We use a 9 gate method 3 gates inside the opponents arms and 6 outside the opponents arms. We have no blocks but train covering our exposed gates as we move and how to cover gates based on how the opponent moves.
Our system is made up of the 4 forms SNT,CK, BJ and BGK, the wooden man form, the pole form and the knife form.We have several tests you must pass before you can be said to have completed the training. For example with the knives you must be able to absorb the full force of an attack with a kwan dao without moving or losing your stance or structure. This is to show you have learned how to absorb and direct force into the ground.You must be able to demonstrate the short issuing ging with you arm fully outstretched and palm flat on the target. the arm may not bend and the palm may not move as you issue energy.
The History of Wing Chun According to Lo Kwai - By Chao Tseng-Ming and Brian Scanlon
Leung Yee Tai and Wong Wah Bo. Leung Jan learned 2 different interpretations of wing chun. The small frame from LYT and large frame from WWB. WWB was considered the best fighter of the wing chun group of Opera members. WWB taught 1 form and LYT taught short forms or San Sik.
Leung Jan wanted to combine everything he learned from his 2 Sifu into one complete method. WWB worked with LJ to combine everything into a teachable progressive system. LJ was very educated and wanted to have an organized method for remembering and teaching. The 1 form had 4 parts to it. This was divided into 3+1 forms . This allowed moving of some sections from the begining to the end and allowed the insertion of the material of LYT.
After this the 3 forms of SLT, CK, BJ became more or less set. The Muk Yan Jong, Yee Gee Dao and Look Dim Boon Gwun were not fully set at this point. As they became more set the 4th form was felt to be uneeded as much of what it contained was put into the Jong and Dao. Several san sik came from the 4th form or as some might say the 4th section of the 1 form.
Chan Kwai began learning from Leung Jan . He taught his son and 2 nephews Chao Cheng Lei and Chao Chong Lin. Chao Chong Lin survived and taught his son Chao Jian Yu he taught a few others. His successor was his son Chao Qiang Kwai ( 1904–2003). He had several students including Chao Feng his successor and my father Chao Gang and his last student and only westerner to be taught Hunter von Unschuld. My father and grandfather taught me Chao Tseng-Ming.
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Kwan Sau
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Wow...this is very cool! Thanks for sharing KFF!
I clicked on the links but it went to a website asking for a password(?).
The curriculum sounds interesting, as well as the tests you mention.
Would love to hear or see more on those 18 energies you mentioned. Any examples you care to post?
How was/is the Bot Gwa Kuen passed down? As part of an empty-hand form?
OP
zuti car
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I have never seen their "good stuff" really works ,in a ring or in a real situation , so they can keep it .
I have similar point of view , It is not important what some old wing chun guy could do 100 years ago but what I can do. I have checked that Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun you mentioned in your post and I can say my approach is very similar to theirs . On the other hand I have passion for history , not only martial history but in general , and exploring the history of the style I am practicing comes naturally as a result of that interest. I know I ask uncomfortable question that upset people but these questions are valid ones . It amazes me how easily people loose perspective when it comes to CMA history. They often behave like children a have completely unrealistic view toward "kung fu ancestors" ,not to speak about inappropriate emotions . "Ancestors " are perfect in every way , morally ,ethically and they often had superhuman abilities , and if that view is challenged people react like kids react when someone tells them their dad is not the strongest and their mom is not the most beautiful .It is easily forgotten that "kung fu ancestors" were just people , not better , nor worst than anyone else .often they did things out of the necessity of the situation , like Yip Man . While most of the people worship Yip Man as some kind of demigod or at least a hero with all the attributes numbered before I see a man who escaped communist prosecution (he had to do it , otherwise he would be killed for sure) but he left his wife and children behind . They could be killed easily , communists did killed families of their political enemies . Yip Man took all the money , lost that money gambling and developed addiction on opium . Now , could a person like that invent a story about Leung Bik in order to attract students ? I think it would be strange if he didn't .
Let's talk about Leung Jan , it is said he had more than 300 fights and he was undefeated .This is very hard to believe , unless he fought total beginners without any martial experience . After 300 fights , even if he won all of them , he would be crippled . If we look professional fighters of modern time , boxers for example , during a career they have 50 - 60 fights , and later in life they suffer from a range of diseases which are directly related to their fighting training . Leung Jan lived way above the average life span of its time which means he was a healthy man who took good care about himself , no way he had 300 fights , i think 3 to 10 if he had any would be much closer to the truth , time and pulp fiction novels later did the rest
Jake104
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I'm always skeptical when masters throw out numbers like 300 or 600 fights won. To me that's a red flag. Real fighters don't count. Why would you if you're protecting yourself? No need to keep score. Just be happy you made it through those situations.
History is good but, seriously it becomes a real snooze fest after awhile. Maybe this is the answer to Geezers thread, on why people are leaving WC? I guarrentee this is a factor. Why is it so important to some people? IMO, that's all they got. They don't spar, they don't fight, competition or real. So the tales of there WC history/lineage fills that void. They live through what somebody they never met, who may or may not existed, did 150 years ago, or didn't do..????? I don't get it, and I don't want to get it! I too only care about what I can do and not what somebody did 100 years ago.
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Vajramusti
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Vajramusti
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Folks can think in various ways and I know many will.. But my own view is- IM and YKS knew each other and were neighbors and interacted some together. But I don't think that YKS taught IP man wc.Among others three points in my reasoning.
1.People infer different things from videos and chi chat. To my eyes- in both structure and dynamics- IM's structure and motion is different from YKS. They turn on the axis differently-
2.If you get someone to translate Kwok Fu's last "secret interview(he died in 2011 and was one of two earliest Foshan students)-you will see that he also knew YKS and mentions 1. the axis 2. he was able to get through to
YKS and 3. when YKS came over- IM man told Kwok Fu not to show YKS, the IM dummy work
3. only the YKS folks(not IM or his sons) claim that YKS had a a major influence on IM
Incidentally Sam Nun developed much of his wc himself though he started with YKS. Rene's website originally was called YKS wing chun. When Rene visited Sum Nun . SN was not very happy with that. Then Rene changed it(the name) to give Sum Nun proper credit. because of Chinese cultural tendencies-there is a lot of disguising of conversations and relationships. So look at what actually remains in the dynamics- specially the feet in IM and YKS-SN.
1.People infer different things from videos and chi chat. To my eyes- in both structure and dynamics- IM's structure and motion is different from YKS. They turn on the axis differently-
2.If you get someone to translate Kwok Fu's last "secret interview(he died in 2011 and was one of two earliest Foshan students)-you will see that he also knew YKS and mentions 1. the axis 2. he was able to get through to
YKS and 3. when YKS came over- IM man told Kwok Fu not to show YKS, the IM dummy work
3. only the YKS folks(not IM or his sons) claim that YKS had a a major influence on IM
Incidentally Sam Nun developed much of his wc himself though he started with YKS. Rene's website originally was called YKS wing chun. When Rene visited Sum Nun . SN was not very happy with that. Then Rene changed it(the name) to give Sum Nun proper credit. because of Chinese cultural tendencies-there is a lot of disguising of conversations and relationships. So look at what actually remains in the dynamics- specially the feet in IM and YKS-SN.
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The info I posted can be found on this website WingChunPedia - The One and Only Wing Chun Encylopedia WCP Lo Kwai Chao Family System browse
The 18 Energies are:
Tao=spit
Tun=swallow
Fao=raise
Chum=sink
Mo=touch
Dong=swing
Na =adhere
Kum=grasp
Lao=leak
Tong=press
Biu=thrust
Zhan=vibrate,
Huai=spiral
Juan=roll
Shuai=throw
Zhi=straight
Darp=join
Jui=follow.
Bot Gwa Kuen means 8 directions fists, basicly a combination of the footwork from the jong and bot jaam do forms done with empty hands techniques in a form.This system is not my cup of tea and I do not practice it, In terms of Leung jan's wck I have a preference for kulo pin sun wck.
Kwan Sau
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OP
zuti car
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About structure , it similar , not the same , but that fact alone doesn't prove or disapprove anything , many of Yip Man' students have different structure , yet they all learnt from same teacher.
I watched Kwok Fu interview , that looks a lot like other Yip Man's "students" stories , "I had a lot of underground fights " , "I was Burce Lee's teacher" or at last "I was way better than Bruce Lee and won several fights against him" . Everyone who ever spent two hours in Yip Man;s school is grandmaster today and they all have same mantra " underground, secret fights, Bruce lee" . Now ,Kwok fu didn't have Bruce but he had Yuen Kai San. I am very skeptical when I hear this kind of stories . Most of it can be easily proved as a false ones . About "he was able to get through to YKS" , is there really an untouchable master ? Maybe in some schools where "master" do not touch hands with anyone outside the school , only with low level students . But , really , watch professional fights , is there a fighter who wasn't got hit ? Only in HK action movies there are untouchable kung fu fighters .
Not only YKS people claim that Yip Man learnt from YKS , I, for example, am not involved in YSK WCK in any way but I say it is highly probable that Yip Man did learn from YKS. In essence , YKS people do not care much about Yip Man , they only reacted after that movie where YKS character was given wrong place . Yip Man's sons will , of course , support Leung Bik story for obvious reasons .
Now .Let's talk about Yip Man and what we know about his learning . He spent 6 months with Chan Wah Shun and a year or two with Ng Chan So . Was that enough to pick up the whole system ? I think yes , if he spent every day with his teachers . On the other hand he was a child and his capacity to fully understand the teachings is questionable. Now , a lot of people agree that Yip Man's wing chun is different from Chan Wah Shun's , but there is a catch , we don't know how CWS wck really looked like . Maybe Yip Man's style is the purest CWS wck , maybe he did learn something from some other source . We don't know . What we know is that Leung Bik's existence cannot be proved and that story probably never happened . Maybe Leung Bik was YKS , maybe not , but there is more chance that YKS was "Leung Bik" than the other story . One more thing is often forgotten , at the time when YKS and Yip Man spent a lot f time together , they did that in Ng Chan So's school . Maybe Yip Man continued his studies with his old teacher , maybe they developed their style further . We don't know. I believe it is better to say the truth about what we know and what we do not know than blindly believe in the stories that cannot be proved ( usually these stories are giving a believer some sense of exclusivity and superiority , and that is one more reason not to believe in them)
