Kung fu in MMA Wins

Hanzou

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This will work, but I'm not sure oh often it will work with BJJ. BJJ often tries to go to the outside of that arm drag. I've thought of similar things only to run into some doubts because of how they step which makes me thing the method in which they do things is informed of this reality.

The arm drag is the set up point or entry to something else. But it's really difficult to say what a counter will be. Grappling Only doesn't take into consideration striking so there are some stances in the previous videos that would not be recommended for dealing with someone who make punch, kick, or knee.

I have to give it some thought on the various type of scenarios in which the counter you have shown will work. The way that BJJ does the arm drag would result in a lost point in Shuai Jiao as soon as their knee hits the ground right?

Yes, arm drag tends to come into play most often in grappling only comps. Its relatively rare in MMA.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Gotcha, I thought you were referring to the post where Hanzou showed a clip of Marcelo Garcia pulling off that move in live sparring.
I figured that things got confusing or the whole world got crazy lol.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Just give more time, we will see CMA guys compete in MMA more and more.

Just got an E-mail from one of my students. He told me that one of my other student's student competed in MMA.

"Did you know Kirks student Adam competed in a MMA event less than a month ago and beat the guy in less than a minute. This was in San Antonio. ..."
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Yes, arm drag tends to come into play most often in grappling only comps. Its relatively rare in MMA.
This is why the arm wrap is more useful in MMA than arm drag. After you have controlled your opponent's arm, you don't need to redirect it to the other arm. It becomes 1 step instead of 2 steps.

The arm drag can allow you to move from the side door to the front door (or the other way around). The arm wrap won't give you that ability. But for striking art, the door changing ability is not that important.

It will be unlikely that one day we will see the shoulder throw be used in MMA. IMO, by using the MMA method, many useful principles (such as arm drag, shoulder throw, ...) may be de-emphasized. MMA guys will not train those skills. Not sure that's a good for the MA in the long run.

Chang-outer-bow.gif
 
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Hanzou

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This is why the arm wrap is more useful in MMA than arm drag. After you have controlled your opponent's arm, you don't need to redirect it to the other arm. It becomes 1 step instead of 2 steps.

The arm drag can allow you to move from the side door to the front door (or the other way around). The arm wrap won't give you that ability. But for striking art, the door changing ability is not that important.

It will be unlikely that one day we will see the shoulder throw be used in MMA. IMO, by using the MMA method, many useful principles (such as arm drag, shoulder throw, ...) may be de-emphasized. MMA guys will not train those skills. Not sure that's a good for the MA in the long run.

View attachment 27290

The MMA method is simply what works in a fight versus fluff that either never works or is very low percentage. There is no scenario where people simply arent doing a useful technique in MMA. In reality, whats happening is someone tried that technique in training or in a match and get punished heavily for it.

Personally, I feel that MMA was a wonderful advancement for martial arts. It cut through the crap and pulled back the curtain on all the charlatans who were ripping people off for years. As a whole, were far better martial artists now than we were 30 years ago, and its entirely thanks to the first UFC.
 

InfiniteLoop

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It's about time, but not really. I always knew this kick was bad news. Straight out of the Kung Fu Manual. Kung Fu gets a bad image, but there is some really dangerous end game type stuff in there. Sucks to have that knee blown out like that. Hopefully it's not career ending

View attachment 27231


You can might as well chalk it up for Kung Fu whenever a chambered roundhouse kick with the instep (or ball of the foot) wins a fight... That's in kung fu too.
 
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JowGaWolf

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You can might as well chalk it up for Kung Fu whenever a chambered roundhouse kick with the instep (or ball of the foot) wins a fight... That's in kung fu too.
I would do it for any system that uses / trains that technique. Even if the fighter doesn't train in the system. We only have 2 arms and 2 legs so there's going to be a limit on how one physically move to perform a side kick. This is the same for a roundhouse kick, which is why so many systems have the same or similar techniques that were developed independent of each other. While there's no way to know who "invented" the round house kick. There are ways to look back through various fighting systems to see which systems use it and when. A lot of the things that we see in UFC are things that came from other systems.

One only has to look at UFC 1 as proof. Everyone in UFC came and fought with techniques from systems that existed before UFC 1. Even the concept of MMA (mixed martial arts). Is not a new one. There are many old fighting systems out there that blended different martial arts systems together to make it one fighting system. The only difference is that MMA is not a fighting system. All MMA gyms do not teach the same fighting techniques.

If I go to a Muay Thai school in the US and one in the Thailand, then I can expect to see similar approaches and the same techniques.The same cannot be said with MMA. There's no uniform agreement or defined requirement for what makes an MMA fighting system.

In my mind, MMA is like a cake that hasn't been baked. It doesn't matter what ingredients you mix if you don't plan on baking it. Karate, Jow Ga Kung Fu, Muay Thai, BJJ, White crane Kung Fu are baked cakes. If you want a Muay Thai cake then you use the same Muay Thai ingredients. I cannot just throw fighting systems together and get Muay Thai cake. The ingredients of the cake are like the techniques that make the cake. So every cake may use butter and sugar, which is similar to multiple systems using the same techniques.

The issue that I see with UFC and MMA fans is that many believe that other systems don't use the same valid techniques. Even though they have been using those same ingredients (techniques) for centuries to bake cakes (create fighting systems) that existed long before UFC existed.
 

InfiniteLoop

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I would do it for any system that uses / trains that technique. Even if the fighter doesn't train in the system. We only have 2 arms and 2 legs so there's going to be a limit on how one physically move to perform a side kick. This is the same for a roundhouse kick, which is why so many systems have the same or similar techniques that were developed independent of each other. While there's no way to know who "invented" the round house kick. There are ways to look back through various fighting systems to see which systems use it and when. A lot of the things that we see in UFC are things that came from other systems.

One only has to look at UFC 1 as proof. Everyone in UFC came and fought with techniques from systems that existed before UFC 1. Even the concept of MMA (mixed martial arts). Is not a new one. There are many old fighting systems out there that blended different martial arts systems together to make it one fighting system. The only difference is that MMA is not a fighting system. All MMA gyms do not teach the same fighting techniques.

If I go to a Muay Thai school in the US and one in the Thailand, then I can expect to see similar approaches and the same techniques.The same cannot be said with MMA. There's no uniform agreement or defined requirement for what makes an MMA fighting system.

In my mind, MMA is like a cake that hasn't been baked. It doesn't matter what ingredients you mix if you don't plan on baking it. Karate, Jow Ga Kung Fu, Muay Thai, BJJ, White crane Kung Fu are baked cakes. If you want a Muay Thai cake then you use the same Muay Thai ingredients. I cannot just throw fighting systems together and get Muay Thai cake. The ingredients of the cake are like the techniques that make the cake. So every cake may use butter and sugar, which is similar to multiple systems using the same techniques.

The issue that I see with UFC and MMA fans is that many believe that other systems don't use the same valid techniques. Even though they have been using those same ingredients (techniques) for centuries to bake cakes (create fighting systems) that existed long before UFC existed.
To be absolutely precise, there are subtle differences between Kung fu roundhouse and side kicks compared to TaeKwonDo. In particular back posture. They are quite identical to old Japanese Karate styles though.
 

Hanzou

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I would do it for any system that uses / trains that technique. Even if the fighter doesn't train in the system. We only have 2 arms and 2 legs so there's going to be a limit on how one physically move to perform a side kick. This is the same for a roundhouse kick, which is why so many systems have the same or similar techniques that were developed independent of each other. While there's no way to know who "invented" the round house kick. There are ways to look back through various fighting systems to see which systems use it and when. A lot of the things that we see in UFC are things that came from other systems.

One only has to look at UFC 1 as proof. Everyone in UFC came and fought with techniques from systems that existed before UFC 1. Even the concept of MMA (mixed martial arts). Is not a new one. There are many old fighting systems out there that blended different martial arts systems together to make it one fighting system. The only difference is that MMA is not a fighting system. All MMA gyms do not teach the same fighting techniques.

If I go to a Muay Thai school in the US and one in the Thailand, then I can expect to see similar approaches and the same techniques.The same cannot be said with MMA. There's no uniform agreement or defined requirement for what makes an MMA fighting system.

In my mind, MMA is like a cake that hasn't been baked. It doesn't matter what ingredients you mix if you don't plan on baking it. Karate, Jow Ga Kung Fu, Muay Thai, BJJ, White crane Kung Fu are baked cakes. If you want a Muay Thai cake then you use the same Muay Thai ingredients. I cannot just throw fighting systems together and get Muay Thai cake. The ingredients of the cake are like the techniques that make the cake. So every cake may use butter and sugar, which is similar to multiple systems using the same techniques.

The issue that I see with UFC and MMA fans is that many believe that other systems don't use the same valid techniques. Even though they have been using those same ingredients (techniques) for centuries to bake cakes (create fighting systems) that existed long before UFC existed.

Uh, theres definitely martial arts systems that will never be taught in a MMA gym, and there are martial arts systems that you will almost always find being offered in a MMA gym. The idea that MMA is just random arts thrown together is nonsense. You have standup and grappling, and pretty much everyone knows where to go to get coaches for either one.

Which is why when that clown Shawn Obasi showed up to a MMA camp doing Wing Chun, the coaches immediately told him that he needed to learn Muay Thai because they didnt want him to get killed.
 

Oily Dragon

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Which is why when that clown Shawn Obasi showed up to a MMA camp doing Wing Chun, the coaches immediately told him that he needed to learn Muay Thai because they didnt want him to get killed.

Which is super funny, because both arts are so similar in so many ways.

Sean went in howling he was a "Wing Chun man", and came out just howling, as it was meant to be.
 

Flying Crane

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To be absolutely precise, there are subtle differences between Kung fu roundhouse and side kicks compared to TaeKwonDo. In particular back posture. They are quite identical to old Japanese Karate styles though.
Any particular kung fu method you are referring to here? Because there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, many of which are dramatically different from each other. How many have you seen?
 

Hanzou

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Which is super funny, because both arts are so similar in so many ways.

Sean went in howling he was a "Wing Chun man", and came out just howling, as it was meant to be.

I don't think a WC or MT practitioner would agree with that assessment.

But yes, Obasi is a moron, but I do give him credit for attempting to bring authentic Wing Chun into MMA. Unfortunately like so many Kung Fu guys before him, he quickly realized that his training left him woefully incapable of being effective in an actual fighting situation.
 

jayoliver00

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If my last school tried to run our school like this, then we would have lost many customers who want to learn Kung Fu but not for fighting. To give you When I started doing Kung fu sparring classes on a regular bases. The class went empty for a year before any of the current student's joined.

Did you force them all to spar or gave them the option?

Out of 25 students only 5 wanted to take that path and only 2 had the skill set and toughness to compete in MMA. 1 of the 2 wouldn't have done it because he's a surgeon. A lot of the students were children.

I guess the damage has been done by nearly 30 years of UFC. TMA's doesn't seem to attract enough of the competitive types any longer.

The adults students had Jobs that were better than fighting MMA so there's no incentive to get busted up for less money.

Working at McDonald's usually pays better than fighting MMA for money. I was referring to fighting as a hobby or even just 1-5 fights only.


They were satisfied with being able to protect themselves in the street and to have the ability to say that they know how to use Kung Fu, which is a big deal considering most student's don't know how to use the martial arts that they train as for self defense. They can do the basics but that's usually where it sticks.

Fighting at a high competition level comes with a lot of things that most people just don't want to deal with.

Everyone is fearful because people keep dying for it. My friend just contacted me 2 days ago and told me his mom died from Covid. No one wants to die from something that could have been avoided. No parent wants to there kid to die from either. Parent's should protect their kids and when they can't or don't many will feel as if they are to blame, even if they aren't.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend's mother's death. Was she vaccinated? No doubt that Covid is real, but I'm just wondering why hardly anyone dies of the flu, pneumonia, etc. any longer since.

As for the schools making money. I find that to be more of a business knowledge issue as to why TMA schools do not do well with attracting students. When I was teaching we were getting a lot of students and were actually running out of training space. The thing that attracted the student's was my ability to use Jow Ga. In short, someone says I can teach you how to use Kung Fu. The customer will think "Show me that you can use kung fu." Most people who want to learn Kung Fu for self-defense wants to learn from someone who can actually use it. Normally schools will showcase trophies, but for me, I would show case my sparring and my training methods.

Students weren't looking for Professional fighter grade training. Professional fighter grade training is unrealistic for many people since the amount of training would interfere with other parts of their life. I even had other Jow Ga students from other schools seek my help. But politically that's not a good thing since I'm not a Sifu.

Kung Fu and Martial Arts don't have the same limitations as systems that are heavily focused on grappling. I can provide quality training to students with less contact than what BJJ, Judo, or wrestler's need.

May I ask you a question from your perspective as a Black American?
 
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JowGaWolf

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Did you force them all to spar or gave them the option?
My understanding of "Force" is to make someone do something that they don't want to do. We market so we would only attract the people that we wanted to train.

Instead of saying. I want to teach martial arts to people. Our thinking was. I want to teach martial arts to people who have a specific interest. That way you get the type of people you want. For example, the people we wanted to train fall into one or more categories.
1. People who want to learn Kung Fu
2. People who wanted to get fit
3. People who wanted to learn how to use Kung Fu
4. People who were looking for self-defense.

By targeting specific types of people, there's no need to Force someone. You want people to be there because they want to be there. The closest thing to being force to do something was sparring for kids. Most kids parents wanted to take kung fu because of self-defense. They wanted their child to be able to physically fight if needed. So right off the back we were honest with parents. We told them that their child would need to spar, no exceptions. If the parent wanted that for their child, then that's what the child had to do even if they didn't want to. There were some kids who dreaded sparring, but there were others who naturally fell into as it was like "rough play" for them. That's the closet to "Force" that we got. But in my mind, it's not forcing, it's a requirement and part of what is done to learn how to use Kung Fu.

Force to me would be like you coming to learn kung fu for exercise and I force you to do sparring and deal with having bruises and having to deal with the fear of getting hurt. We didn't force people into situations like that.

There were some people who came for social aspect and stayed for more than 8 years and learned very little. This student usually showed up when he felt like he needed to get in shape. That was his thing. We didn't force him to do anything, including learning Kung Fu. His time, his Money. His money helped keep the school open.
 
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JowGaWolf

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I'm sorry to hear about your friend's mother's death. Was she vaccinated? No doubt that Covid is real, but I'm just wondering why hardly anyone dies of the flu, pneumonia, etc. any longer since.
When I talked to my friend he said that he was letting me know how important it is to get the vaccination. He was letting everyone he knows that she died from Covid and that she wasn't vaccinated.

May I ask you a question from your perspective as a Black American?
Sure. I don't mind talking about things like that. You are the first person that who has even bother to ask me. So ask away.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Did you force them all to spar or gave them the option?
In my class, I used to use the sparring as part of the warm up. Students will make 2 circles. One person in the inside circle will spar with another person in the outside circle. After 1 minute, the outside circle will rotate and students will spar with different opponents. This way, any student can spar with many different opponents. Since it's part of the warm up sequence, they don't have any option not to participate.
 
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JowGaWolf

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In my class, I used to use the sparring as part of the warm up. Students will make 2 circles. One person in the inside circle will spar with another person in the outside circle. After 1 minute, the outside circle will rotate and students will spar with different opponents. This way, any student can spar with many different opponents. Since it's part of the warm up sequence, they don't have any option not to participate.
I tried to sell light sparring as a good way to stay fit. It didn't go to well. Many of the students thought sparring meant (knock the other person's head off). I had one student that broke down and decided to give it a try. We did light sparring and none of his fears came true. He told me that it was great exercise and a lot harder than he thought. He said that he thought that he was going to be hit hard. So I said, "Not unless you want to be hit hard." lol.

I think most people only know sparring as hitting each other hard. So I may have to market sparring as something other than sparring in the future.
 

isshinryuronin

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I had one student that broke down and decided to give it a try. We did light sparring and none of his fears came true.
This is why sparring, even light, is an important part of MA. Introduced properly to the (reluctant) student, it shows that fear is not to be avoided, but overcome. Overcoming increasingly difficult challenges leads to confidence, and confidence leads to accomplishment.

Vigorous two-man drills are good to develop effective application that works in real self-defense situations, however, are not a substitute. The spontaneity of sparring is missing, in both physical and tactical reactions on the fly.

IMO, the more elements of training used, the more complete a martial artist will become: Solo basic drills, two-man drills, forms, exercises, conditioning, and sparring. The school will emphasize some of these more than others, as will the individual student. But all should be included as at least some part of the program.
 

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