Kung fu in MMA Wins

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JowGaWolf

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Let's rewind; YOU were the one who originally linked this video because you erroneously believed that he was initiating an arm drag using a spear hand (and that it had some bizarre link to Kung fu forms).
Those are 2 different things. The kung fu form video was posted about another conversation and I asked you to show me what you thought was fluff. That video had double spear hand and I explained what it was.

Spear hand is simple. Move your hand in a direct line from point A to B. It is a linear movement. Term spear hand simply means your hand is not closed. Which is what the guy did with the arm drag. Linear is a shorter distance than circular. This movement is often used as an entry movement between tight spots, and in cases where using circular movements will cause problems with a grappling attempt
 

Hanzou

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Those are 2 different things. The kung fu form video was posted about another conversation and I asked you to show me what you thought was fluff. That video had double spear hand and I explained what it was.

Spear hand is simple. Move your hand in a direct line from point A to B. It is a linear movement. Term spear hand simply means your hand is not closed. Which is what the guy did with the arm drag. Linear is a shorter distance than circular. This movement is often used as an entry movement between tight spots, and in cases where using circular movements will cause problems with a grappling attempt

But once again, he was not doing a spear hand as a part of the technique. He was merely showing where the hands should go after the drag.
 
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JowGaWolf

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When that was proven false, you moved the goalpost over to this guy not knowing how to do an arm drag, or that doing an arm drag opens you up to counters.
I never moved the goal post. I'm still on spear hand and that video where he does the arm drag and moves on the other side of the arm while getting under the arm. The video that you showed was not the same because he didn't move to the same side as the arm drag.

Moving to the opposite side not only changes the follow up after the arm drag it changes what must be dealt with.

Arm Drag + move to out side of arm drag while initiating body grab under the arm
Arm Drag + move to the inside of arm drag while pinning opposite arm are not the same thing.
 
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JowGaWolf

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But once again, he was not doing a spear hand as a part of the technique. He was merely showing where the hands should go after the drag.
That why I told you to show me a video of that exact arm drag to take down exactly the way he's demonstrating it. He didn't pin the arm that he's dragging, So any videos that show that are not the same thing.
 

Hanzou

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That why I told you to show me a video of that exact arm drag to take down exactly the way he's demonstrating it. He didn't pin the arm that he's dragging, So any videos that show that are not the same thing.

See post #355.
 

Tony Dismukes

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That's a demo, it not done against a resisting partner. There's not even a small struggle.
You are incorrect. It just looks that way because Marcelo Garcia is so good that he makes any non-elite grappler look like they're not even trying to resist.
 

Hanzou

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That's a demo, it not done against a resisting partner. There's not even a small struggle.

Not the point. The point is that he isnt using a spear hand to do an arm drag to takedown.

And neither is Marcelo Garcia.
 

Steve

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You are incorrect. It just looks that way because Marcelo Garcia is so good that he makes any non-elite grappler look like they're not even trying to resist.
There was a time, maybe 10 or 15 years ago, he would make most elite grapplers look that way, too.
 
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JowGaWolf

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You are incorrect. It just looks that way because Marcelo Garcia is so good that he makes any non-elite grappler look like they're not even trying to resist.
You do know that I'm talking about this video right?

This is the video that I'm referring to as a demo and the opponent not resisting. Hanzou tries to change the subject on stuff and start talking about stuff people never said.

Now one in the world can make me believe that Red is trying to resist the arm drag..

Literally out of the words of his mouth at 3:18 "I'm going to drop my level. And this hand is gonna go underneath his arm. " Then as he (White) continues to bring his arm close to the his center of his own body after it clears the arm and "strikes" downward to secure the grasp around the hip.

That small portion of moving the hand around the arm in that manner is the the same concept that Jow Ga uses with our spear hand. Hanzou said said that the "Spear Hand" was archaic in fluff. My question was how can it be Archaic / fluff when they are the same concept movement. That movement may be known by different names. In BJJ it's one name in Kung Fu it's a spear hand/ arm movement. I train Kung Fu so when I see that movement that is what I call it.

I'm not saying that the BJJ guy took kung fu. That's Hanzou's argument. But what I'm am saying is that same concept of moving the arm that way is in kung fu. And in Kung Fu it's called a spear hand.

I've been saying this since Hanzou called the clip of the Jow Ga form fluff. That's the point of my discussion. "He is not doing spear hand" was never my argument.

And also again. What he does here at 3:19

Is not the same follow up after the arm drag that Hanzou showed in Marcelo Garcia clips. Hanzou has a habit of dragging out a topic and the slowly changing the focus to something that the poster never claimed.
 

Hanzou

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Including a number of elite grapplers who were much bigger than him.

You do know that I'm talking about this video right?

This is the video that I'm referring to as a demo and the opponent not resisting. Hanzou tries to change the subject on stuff and start talking about stuff people never said.

Now one in the world can make me believe that Red is trying to resist the arm drag..

Literally out of the words of his mouth at 3:18 "I'm going to drop my level. And this hand is gonna go underneath his arm. " Then as he (White) continues to bring his arm close to the his center of his own body after it clears the arm and "strikes" downward to secure the grasp around the hip.

That small portion of moving the hand around the arm in that manner is the the same concept that Jow Ga uses with our spear hand. Hanzou said said that the "Spear Hand" was archaic in fluff. My question was how can it be Archaic / fluff when they are the same concept movement. That movement may be known by different names. In BJJ it's one name in Kung Fu it's a spear hand/ arm movement. I train Kung Fu so when I see that movement that is what I call it.

I'm not saying that the BJJ guy took kung fu. That's Hanzou's argument. But what I'm am saying is that same concept of moving the arm that way is in kung fu. And in Kung Fu it's called a spear hand.

I've been saying this since Hanzou called the clip of the Jow Ga form fluff. That's the point of my discussion. "He is not doing spear hand" was never my argument.

And also again. What he does here at 3:19

Is not the same follow up after the arm drag that Hanzou showed in Marcelo Garcia clips. Hanzou has a habit of dragging out a topic and the slowly changing the focus to something that the poster never claimed.

Yeah, anyone actually watching that video and not just stopping it at the 3:19 mark will know that he is clearly not using the spear hand for the arm drag. Like seriously, just watch 10 more seconds after that mark, it isn't that hard.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Yeah, anyone actually watching that video and not just stopping it at the 3:19 mark will know that he is clearly not using the spear hand for the arm drag.
The move that I'm talking about comes after the arm drag. If you can't get that right then there's no way you can understand kung fu. Either that or you are intentionally saying things that people never stated or claimed for the purpose of misleading others.

At this point I don't care anymore. If you can't identify the movement that I'm talking about then there's no point. It's like me telling you what tree is and when I asked you to show me what I'm talking about, you point to the sky, and then proceed to make an argument that the sky doesn't have leaves.
 

Hanzou

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The move that I'm talking about comes after the arm drag. If you can't get that right then there's no way you can understand kung fu. Either that or you are intentionally saying things that people never stated or claimed for the purpose of misleading others.

At this point I don't care anymore. If you can't identify the movement that I'm talking about then there's no point. It's like me telling you what tree is and when I asked you to show me what I'm talking about, you point to the sky, and then proceed to make an argument that the sky doesn't have leaves.

Where's the Spear hand?

5mrno4.gif


Answer: There isn't one.

Seriously, Kata Bunkai (and whatever the equivalent is in Chinese martial art forms) is simply the worst.
 

Rich Parsons

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I am more judging by the first few UFC where there's no rule other than no eyes gouging, no biting. It's very clear what style can stand up to the test and who cannot. Yes, there is more rules now, but still it's the closest to real fight.

I cannot relate to what you say about weapon in FMA. We are talking about bare knuckle fighting here only. Weapon is a different category. In fact the only reason I am here on this forum is because I recently picked up FMA stick fight using a cane because of my age. Bringing a cane into self defense against people with no weapon or even a small knife is a game changer because of the increase in reach of the cane and hit much harder with a cane. Actually I am practice the one using both hands on the cane, I forgot the name at the moment. It is FMA for sure. I have been watching different styles of stick fight and I find FMA is the best. I am still practicing hard on it.


Good for picking up FMA.
FMA also has lots of empty hands.

And I disagree about the early UFCs about arts or styles.
It was about what those people did on those nights.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Further discussion on this clip, what can white do to prevent red from pushing white backward (or side way)?

When red does that, there is no way that white can move his arm from inside of red's arm to outside of red's arm.

This is why I believe when you train arm drag, you should also train how to:

- counter it.
- counter the counter.

This is what I'm talking about.

arm-drag-counter.gif
 
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Hanzou

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Further discussion on this clip, what can white do to prevent red from pushing white backward (or side way)?

When red does that, there is no way that white can move his arm from inside of red's arm to outside of red's arm.

This is why I believe when you train arm drag, you should also train how to:

- counter it.
- counter the counter.

This is what I'm talking about.

View attachment 27288

Well for starters you wouldn't go that deep in an arm drag. He's so deep in that clip (pretty much up into the arm pit) that he has no space to change levels or even move the arm off the center line. I really don't know what he was trying to do here.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Further discussion on this clip, what can white do to prevent red from pushing white backward (or side way)?

When red does that, there is no way that white can move his arm from inside of red's arm to outside of red's arm.

This is why I believe when you train arm drag, you should also train how to:

- counter it.
- counter the counter.

This is what I'm talking about.

View attachment 27288
This will work, but I'm not sure oh often it will work with BJJ. BJJ often tries to go to the outside of that arm drag. I've thought of similar things only to run into some doubts because of how they step which makes me thing the method in which they do things is informed of this reality.

The arm drag is the set up point or entry to something else. But it's really difficult to say what a counter will be. Grappling Only doesn't take into consideration striking so there are some stances in the previous videos that would not be recommended for dealing with someone who make punch, kick, or knee.

I have to give it some thought on the various type of scenarios in which the counter you have shown will work. The way that BJJ does the arm drag would result in a lost point in Shuai Jiao as soon as their knee hits the ground right?
 
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