I'm not sure what to make of this.

[K-man]

There is something to be said for integrity in grading, and personally, I would construct a rewards system for childrens program or a special needs program differently than the ATA has. But at the same time, grading shouldn't overshadow the reason we're there: to train and become better human beings while helping others to train and become better human beings. Not everyone we help through our practice is our student or classmate. Because of this, we enrich the society in which we practice.

This qualification is exactly my point. :asian:

 

[K-man]

There have been many threads on "What is a black belt?" or "What does a black belt mean?"

To me there is basic criteria. If my guys go to train elsewhere I know that they are equipped to handle themselves at a level that reflects their rank. This does not just mean fighting ability as that is always going to vary. I'm talking of things like understanding human anatomy which is the one constant across every style of martial art.

As Daniel Sullivan pointed out, there are many ways of recognising achievement and to me handing out black belts in a situation such as this, is in someways more likely to add the pressure of expectation and actually diminish the achievement. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if the kid was wearing a yellow belt. Instead, we would be talking about the value of the training in the life of a child with severe physical disability and celebrating his achievement. :asian:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There have been many threads on "What is a black belt?" or "What does a black belt mean?"

To me there is basic criteria. If my guys go to train elsewhere I know that they are equipped to handle themselves at a level that reflects their rank. This does not just mean fighting ability as that is always going to vary. I'm talking of things like understanding human anatomy which is the one constant across every style of martial art.

As Daniel Sullivan pointed out, there are many ways of recognising achievement and to me handing out black belts in a situation such as this, is in someways more likely to add the pressure of expectation and actually diminish the achievement. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if the kid was wearing a yellow belt. Instead, we would be talking about the value of the training in the life of a child with severe physical disability and celebrating his achievement. :asian:

Just to be clear, I have no argument with your statement on what a black belt means. I do disagree that black belts on children, handicapped or no, demean black belts earned by able adults.

My point in bringing up Kano's introduction of belts was that his new system and new way of ranking students was looked down upon by his peer. It became very popular and was adopted by many other arts and is ubiquitous in the martial arts today.

However, it doesn't mean the same thing in every art or organization. The ATA uses the black belt to denote students who have learned specific forms or techniques. A lot of commercial schools use it in the same manner. In some schools, a black belt means that you have only completed the most basic level of the art. This topic came up back when Puunui was active and at least as far as the KKW is concerned, a first dan is literally just a beginner. I don't know what the ITF or Jhoon Rhee standards are, as I've never trained in ITF and haven't trained in a Jhoon Rhee school since I was a child.

When I watched the video, his belt color had no impact on my impression of the video. I was more interested in following what he was doing and appreciating his efforts.

As for the ATA's choice of using standard colors, I suspect that the reason is to be inclusive; handicapped kids face enough separation as it is. Doing things like this help to make them feel less isolated. Kids want to be included. They aren't professional athletes. They're just kids. They want to belong, to be able to play the games other kids play. I suspect that this child had to work every bit as hard for his black belt as I did for mine, perhaps harder, so I don't question whether or not he earned it.

This isn't martial arts, but I think the same idea applies. The child in this video has brain cancer and tumors in both his brain and his spine. He had a birthday wish to go on a motorcycle ride. The local bikers arranged a special ride for him and presented him with a leather vest with patches and such. This poor kid will never be able to ride a motorcycle, and may not even live to the age that most of us get our drivers license. His having a club vest in spite of having no motorcycle or riding skills in no way demeans the other riders. But it did make a huge difference in the life of this child and to his parents.

http://www.nwcn.com/news/idaho?fId=217325701&fPath=/home&fDomain=10227

 

[Gorilla]

Many people on this BBS have questioned my kids BB!!!!

People who have seen them fight or train with them have never questioned thier BB...

I Have posted on this BBS for 4 years and I have seen Daniel's position on this grow and I have grown to respect him for it!!!

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

...at least as far as the KKW is concerned, a first dan is literally just a beginner.

The problem to me is that the KKW black belt is conveyed in dojangs to be a big achievement and worthy of $600. But then, anyone who shows up regularly gets it regardless of ability. So is it a big achievement or not??? The Black Belt is only portrayed as the beginning once you get it...before that it is conveyed as the big goal.

As an aside, I've been asked why I don't test, and the reason is simply I want to perform to a certain standard before I get the black belt. (That standard is probably about the top 10% of the typical KKW black belt candidate).

IF you charge $600 it should be a big achievement. If everyone who shows up gets the black belt, don't charge $600. Don't make it a $600 attendance card

 

[Jaeimseu]

The problem to me is that the KKW black belt is conveyed in dojangs to be a big achievement and worthy of $600. But then, anyone who shows up regularly gets it regardless of ability. So is it a big achievement or not??? The Black Belt is only portrayed as the beginning once you get it...before that it is conveyed as the big goal.

As an aside, I've been asked why I don't test, and the reason is simply I want to perform to a certain standard before I get the black belt. (That standard is probably about the top 10% of the typical KKW black belt candidate).

IF you charge $600 it should be a big achievement. If everyone who shows up gets the black belt, don't charge $600. Don't make it a $600 attendance card

Just to be clear, if someone pays $600 for a Kukkiwon dan cert, it's not Kukkiwon who is to blame. Kukkiwon's fees are fairly reasonable and these days it's not too difficult to get the real prices.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Agreed. The value of the KKW designation is used to sell the worth of the black belt. I doubt most parents or students know the split between the KKW fees and the school.

To be fair to schools, schools add (and pass along of course) costs such as embroidered belts, new uniform, tons of boards to break, trophies, plaques, pictures, and supper, which adds to the testing costs. But students don't have a choice to get "the basics" and bypass $400 of the $600, leaving $100 or so for the school's time.

 

[TKDTony2179]

I believe I earned my black belt and I know you guys believe you did too. I do believe that if you have a program set up for special kids or a adult with disabilties that their testing and skill level will reflect that. If that is so, the belt shouldn reflect that as well. A black belt with a colored stripped red or yellow should signify of age or disabilities.

Now for something I have experience. When I started taken TKD there was a guy who had cerbal palsy in class and he was a 2nd degree decided. I thought well, equal oppertunty and nothing more. When I was I was a blue belt and I sparred him I thought of going easy but seeing that his round kicks was hard and punched with his good side I knew to just spar him like anyone else. How far up rank did he go? Only to 2nd senior. The instructor told him because of his disablity he wouldn't be able to go any further. He bowed out gracefully but I tell you he knew his stuff and the training probably helped him more than some people I know.

Now I have talked to a guy where I work at and many times he can't see why people give kids black belts. He thinks know one under the age of 18 should have a black belt and I have said there are some adults that shouldn't have a black belt but to say a black belt kid who is 14 can't handle him self if taught properly against a adult (in sparring) is like crazy. I know that when I look at a kid with a black belt it don't bother me because I know I can bet them. No pride or nothing, just facts. I have even had arguments with him about his local street fighting system and how it don't equal or not reconized to the rest of the world as a art because this system is only Mississippi but yet he still say TKD and his art are are equal and I say no. I know I have a black belt but to go to another stlye and say I have a black belt and I am equal is sometimes far fetch especially when grappling arts and striking arts are just different. Yet, a lot of striking arts have the same techiniques but concepts and theory usually change.

So I don't get bent out of shape for seeing a black belt on a kid or someone with disablities because at the end of the day when I walk out the door I look like all the rest of the world nothing special. Plus, It only means I passed the requriments and to keep training but many people stop at 1st.

Final saying.

I won't teach a person with that kind of disabilities in video because I believe I won't do well and I would be hurting him and me in the long run. I do have students with autism and I think that is about as far as I will go.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The problem to me is that the KKW black belt is conveyed in dojangs to be a big achievement and worthy of $600. But then, anyone who shows up regularly gets it regardless of ability. So is it a big achievement or not??? The Black Belt is only portrayed as the beginning once you get it...before that it is conveyed as the big goal.

As an aside, I've been asked why I don't test, and the reason is simply I want to perform to a certain standard before I get the black belt. (That standard is probably about the top 10% of the typical KKW black belt candidate).

IF you charge $600 it should be a big achievement. If everyone who shows up gets the black belt, don't charge $600. Don't make it a $600 attendance card

Graduating high school is a big achievement. In the grand scheme of things, you still don't know what you're talking about and you're still just a beginner. Jaeimseu already addressed the fee issue, but the reason that they were able to do that is because the idea of what a black belt represented had already been altered in going from Korea/Japan to the US. I can only speak on HKD and TKD, but so far as I know, it was true of JMA at the time as well. The black belt never meant more than that you were a beginner who had learned how to learn. In the US, it has, for all of my life, been portrayed as being a master. Huge difference.

Without that change in meaning, the inflation of dan grading fees would not have been possible.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I would like to comment that this thread displays different views on a subject and yet, everyone has conversed pleasantly and respectfully. It is appreciated.