I hate spoiled kids with spoiled parents.

[jks9199]

My latest mother-defending-the-cubs blow-up (about two months ago) was over even less of an issue, but regarding the same general principle.

Someone complained directly to my son about his behavior in a public place. The person who was correcting my son saw me standing right there at the time, meaning either 1) I didn't see that my son doing something wrong, or 2) I saw it but had no problem with his actions.

I took the person aside to address how he handled the issue, and that with me right there, he should have addressed me and let me deal with my son. Personally, if I *had not* been present, and some other adult had seen my son misbehaving, I would have been grateful for someone standing up to tell him (calmly) to cut out whatever, and bring me word afterwards. However, in this case, the person went straight to addressing why my 10-yr-old autistic son (who plays with his hair so much he has worn a bald spot into his scalp) should not be wearing a cap inside. Grrr!

Correcting other people's children is an emotional landmine looking for a place to blow up. There is almost no *right* way to do it, that will guarantee no one will ever take offense. Too many people see their children's behavior as a direct reflection on themselves, so you are actually criticising them, rather than being viewed as helping the child. In general, I would suggest getting the parents involved whenever possible. Then, if you see the same response, at least you will know where the kid got the behavior issues.

Sorry -- I disagree.

Maybe it's because I've dealt with too many kids whose parents have never bothered to correct them or who apparently don't realize that the actions of their little monster aren't as cute to me as they are to them, and even are sometimes downright dangerous.

But I figure if the parent hasn't corrected the kid's behavior after a couple of minutes (during which I may well have been trying to get the parent's attention)... I'll do it. With the necessary tone and mannerism. Sometimes that means simply saying "Hey, stop." Other times... well, there's something we call "command presence." It's putting that snap into the tone of voice that says on a subliminal level "if you don't comply, I'll make you comply." Yeah, I've made a few kids cry.

But, see, I don't care if YOU as the parent don't have a problem with the behavior. If it's disturbing me (recall, I try to be reasonable; the standard is different at a matinee showing of a Disney cartoon compared to a 10 PM showing of a rated R action flick or at Mickey Ds compared to a $25 an entree restaurant), it's a problem. If you don't take action to bring the kid in line, I will. Now, I'm not suggesting I have the right to do more than tell your kid to stop it under most circumstances -- but I most certainly do have the right to address the kid directly.

 

[newGuy12]

she attempted to stare me down, lotsa luck there...

Haha! I have no children. People say I am a "hedonist". I care only about myself -- I do not want the responsibility of having children, and so I don't. If I were to die, no one would be put out, I am like the Samurai in that way, I am dead meat waiting to die, no wife or children to worry about.

Now, once, I was trying to learn American Kenpo Karate from a very high ranking Teacher. One time there were many children in the community center where he was giving me and other students instruction about Ed Parker's System. He told me, "You go over there and lead those children through some yoga poses." I did as I was told to do.

I told the children, "You all, you come here and do as I do, we will do these yogic exercises now." Some of the children did not seem to do them with enthusiasm. I looked at them, and said, "No, you PUT your hand UP, like this -- do as I do, UP high!" Most were with me then. Note that these poses were not dangerous. They were not stressful.

Still one child, he did not do this. I then said, "NO, up, up, up, like THIS!!!" Then, everyone of them, together, we did these. We only did maybe, oh five poses together.

After that, the Teacher told me, "You did that very well, those children have never been so attentive to instruction ever." Haha! He would not lie to me. I am not a teacher by any means, and children are leary of me for some reason. But this really happened.

Haha -- I avoid places with children because you never know what they will do, haha! They may pick some thing up and throw it at you, anything. If they are younger than six years old, they have no sense of what to do in public, no sense at all.

Its best to not cause a ruckus. Always.

 

[Drac]

Haha! I have no children. People say I am a "hedonist". I care only about myself -- I do not want the responsibility of having children, and so I don't. If I were to die, no one would be put out, I am like the Samurai in that way, I am dead meat waiting to die, no wife or children to worry about.

Now, once, I was trying to learn American Kenpo Karate from a very high ranking Teacher. One time there were many children in the community center where he was giving me and other students instruction about Ed Parker's System. He told me, "You go over there and lead those children through some yoga poses." I did as I was told to do.

I told the children, "You all, you come here and do as I do, we will do these yogic exercises now." Some of the children did not seem to do them with enthusiasm. I looked at them, and said, "No, you PUT your hand UP, like this -- do as I do, UP high!" Most were with me then. Note that these poses were not dangerous. They were not stressful.

Still one child, he did not do this. I then said, "NO, up, up, up, like THIS!!!" Then, everyone of them, together, we did these. We only did maybe, oh five poses together.

After that, the Teacher told me, "You did that very well, those children have never been so attentive to instruction ever." Haha! He would not lie to me. I am not a teacher by any means, and children are leary of me for some reason. But this really happened.

Haha -- I avoid places with children because you never know what they will do, haha! They may pick some thing up and throw it at you, anything. If they are younger than six years old, they have no sense of what to do in public, no sense at all.

Its best to not cause a ruckus. Always.

I told one place I use to dine at alot that their hostess needed to ask "Children or No Children along with the "Smoking or Non Smoking"...

 

[Ninjamom]

Sorry -- I disagree.

Maybe it's because I've dealt with too many kids whose parents have never bothered to correct them or who apparently don't realize that


the actions of their little monster aren't as cute to me as they are to them,


and even are sometimes downright dangerous.

Of course you are free to disagree, but I fail to see how my son wearing a hat in public was jeopardizing the Free World. As with almost every issue, you must evaluate the situation as it unfolds (something I think that you, as a LEO, are well aware of). Your response will fit the specific circumstances and needs of the situation.

I broke your quote into two parts, because I think this shows an important distinction, and helps define what those 'needs of the situation' might be. My thoughts are these: If my kid is doing something placing himself or another in imminent danger, then go, correct away. If my kid is doing something that you just plain don't like, then be careful that you do not become part of the problem - just one more person more interested in personal peace and comfort than whatever the cost to anyone else.

So, I would suggest again, if you are genuinely acting for the safety of another, then correct at will. However, if you feel a desire to address an issue because it bothers or discomforts you, get the parents involved.

 

[BrandiJo]

Throwing things, touching another person un-wantedly, screaming and running around in a restaurant, being left to alone and causing trouble i would address the child before the parent because the parent obviously isn't doing anything. However if it is something like the child tapping the wall annoyingly wearing a hat, or something random like that, that i may have been taught is rude i would recommend going to the parents first, and seeing if as adults you could fix the situation or better understand what is going on.

 

[Bigshadow]

But if you're gonna bring the kids, and they start acting up -- it's time to go.

As a parent, I disagree with that statement. That just tells the kid they can get their way. That is a passive way to secede to them. IMO, the kid(s)' behavior should be dealt with (even if it means administering some attention getting discipline in private) and everyone continue finishing dinner in peace. The only one who won't be happy will be the kid(s), however, they only brought it on themselves. Another lesson for kids in "cause" and "effect".

 

[KempoGuy06]

i can relate. I use to work at Logan's Roadhouse, you know one of the restaurants where you can throw the peanut shells on the ground. Well it's about 10:30 on a Friday night and Im sweeping up the shells and everything from the lobby. I have everything in a pile to be swept up and put into a trash can. I turn around to get the dust pan and I see this kid go flying past me right into my pile. Scatters it everywhere, I was a little mad but nothing to get heated over. I swept it up again and bent down to put it in the dust pan when I see the same kid grab a hand full of peanuts and throw them on the floor. I asked him not to do that because I was cleaning. Well he goes and tell his parents. The mother walks up to me and starts poking me in the chest telling me Im a terrible person for yelling at a child (i dont remember yelling) and she asks to speak to my manager.

To make it short...I was right, she was wrong and my manager asked them to leave the place.

When I was kid, if I would have done that my parents would have beat my ***.

B

 

[crushing]

The little terrorist poked you? My God, the humanity!!!! I'm glad your MA training kept you from sustaining significant injury in the altercation with that menace!!!!!



Just messin'. . .

 

[Sukerkin]

And once more we return to the problem of lack of discipline being administered due to too much 'Bleeding Heart' legislation.

Like Kempo, if I misbehaved in public then my parents had a 'layered response' program. First my mother would admonish me and tell me to stop whatever it was that was wrong. Failing that, my father would tell me to stop. That would usually work for the plain and simple fact that it was my father was the one to execute 'administrative punishment'. If I didn't listen then ... ah well, another good hiding for being too stubborn and rebellious for my own good .

If I was growing up nowadays my father would probably end up in court and I would be free to become a ill-discplined lout at my own convenience.

 

[BrandiJo]

Like Kempo, if I misbehaved in public then my parents had a 'layered response' program. First my mother would admonish me and tell me to stop whatever it was that was wrong. Failing that, my father would tell me to stop. That would usually work for the plain and simple fact that it was my father was the one to execute 'administrative punishment'. If I didn't listen then ... ah well, another good hiding for being too stubborn and rebellious for my own good .

Same here, my bro and i got one warning from my mother, a second from my father then, we had to deal with the effects of our behavior.
My parents however did not take my bro or I out to anything more then Mc Donalds till we where 10 or so though. They felt that other people where paying for a diner and if they wanted to be subjected to children they would not have hired a sitter for their own.

I also one time being in a Target store and being a holy terror and the threat of dealing with dad when we got home did not phase my brother or I(we where 6 nad 7 or 7 and 8 at the time ). So rather then staying at the store and letting my brother and i cause trouble and annoy the staff and shoppers we where taken to the car and right to my dad (who was at work at the time) for some ahhh one on one time, and i honestly think that is the only time my bro and i where little ***** in public. Of course we could not sit down for the rest of the day but it worked.

 

[shesulsa]

But, see, I don't care if YOU as the parent don't have a problem with the behavior. If it's disturbing me (recall, I try to be reasonable; the standard is different at a matinee showing of a Disney cartoon compared to a 10 PM showing of a rated R action flick or at Mickey Ds compared to a $25 an entree restaurant), it's a problem. If you don't take action to bring the kid in line, I will. Now, I'm not suggesting I have the right to do more than tell your kid to stop it under most circumstances -- but I most certainly do have the right to address the kid directly.

Well now, I don't take my child to see R rated movies, but I gotta tell ya ...

You just cannot know what that kid's day has been like. While it is the responsibility of a parent to teach a child appropriate behavior, you just cannot expect a child to behave with the manners and aplomb an adult does. They are not adults, hence the word "child" and I would have a serious problem with anyone dealing with my children directly.

So ... liken this to an adult scenario. Let's say you lost your job, came home to find your spouse in bed with someone else and get a foreclosure notice. You then proceed to the grocery store to buy some food and beer, I bump into you and you bite my head off - not intentionally but because you've had a *really* bad day. Do I get to slug you?

No.

Here's what I want to say to people who feel it's their job to publicly parent my children because of their incomplete and selfish perceptions: Mind Your Own Darned Business.

Now ... like the end of relationships, there are deal-breakers. Children left unsupervised in a store throwing balls about - I have no problem dealing with them directly, but I get store managers to do so mainly because I don't want the kids saying I did something I didn't without a witness around to corroborate my true actions. If a kid is physically assaulting someone else I *might* step in. I was present a few months ago when a teenager stood 5 feet from a cop watching out at a football game and told him he hates cops and that cops have anger problems and they're always throwing around their authority. I had NO PROBLEMS whatsoever telling this kid that this officer had a job to do and to leave him alone, go badmouth someone else. THAT child was old enough to have been taught to respect the law and its representatives. He deserved a talking-to. He is 16. Were he three, I'd speak to his parents.

 

[jks9199]

As a parent, I disagree with that statement. That just tells the kid they can get their way. That is a passive way to secede to them. IMO, the kid(s)' behavior should be dealt with (even if it means administering some attention getting discipline in private) and everyone continue finishing dinner in peace. The only one who won't be happy will be the kid(s), however, they only brought it on themselves. Another lesson for kids in "cause" and "effect".

I'm not suggesting that the whole family leave. Nor am I suggesting that walking out is the only discipline appropriate. For example, I see a couple with two kids most weeks at church. If one gets antsy or starts to misbehave, one of the parents takes them out of the church for a few minutes (or even just walks them around the perimeter row) until they can return to their seat. If that's not enough -- I've seen them leave. It's a scaled response.

Same here, my bro and i got one warning from my mother, a second from my father then, we had to deal with the effects of our behavior.
My parents however did not take my bro or I out to anything more then Mc Donalds till we where 10 or so though. They felt that other people where paying for a diner and if they wanted to be subjected to children they would not have hired a sitter for their own.

Nor am I saying kids should never go to movies or nice restaurants; they have to learn how to behave at some point. But when their behavior becomes a problem, and when simply telling them to behave fails -- something else needs to be done.

Well now, I don't take my child to see R rated movies, but I gotta tell ya ...

You just cannot know what that kid's day has been like. While it is the responsibility of a parent to teach a child appropriate behavior, you just cannot expect a child to behave with the manners and aplomb an adult does. They are not adults, hence the word "child" and I would have a serious problem with anyone dealing with my children directly.

So ... liken this to an adult scenario. Let's say you lost your job, came home to find your spouse in bed with someone else and get a foreclosure notice. You then proceed to the grocery store to buy some food and beer, I bump into you and you bite my head off - not intentionally but because you've had a *really* bad day. Do I get to slug you?

No.

Here's what I want to say to people who feel it's their job to publicly parent my children because of their incomplete and selfish perceptions: Mind Your Own Darned Business.

Now ... like the end of relationships, there are deal-breakers. Children left unsupervised in a store throwing balls about - I have no problem dealing with them directly, but I get store managers to do so mainly because I don't want the kids saying I did something I didn't without a witness around to corroborate my true actions. If a kid is physically assaulting someone else I *might* step in. I was present a few months ago when a teenager stood 5 feet from a cop watching out at a football game and told him he hates cops and that cops have anger problems and they're always throwing around their authority. I had NO PROBLEMS whatsoever telling this kid that this officer had a job to do and to leave him alone, go badmouth someone else. THAT child was old enough to have been taught to respect the law and its representatives. He deserved a talking-to. He is 16. Were he three, I'd speak to his parents.

Recall that I distinguished between situations. If kids are in primarily adult situations (nicer restaurants, movies aimed at adults or at times when kids should be in bed... when did kids stop having reasonable bed times and start staying up all night?) -- then they need to have reasonable behavior for that setting. My church (like many) has a "crying room" or "training room" where families can go to Mass with young kids, and hopefully not disturb the entire congregation if their is a problem. If I'm sitting in that room for some reason -- I know that I'll be around kids, and expect some crying or other distractions. Same thing, as I said, with movies. If I go see Horton Hears A Who this weekend -- especially at a matinee or early showing -- I'm going to expect kids to be there and behaving like kids. But if I go to the same movie at a 10 PM showing -- I don't expect to be surrounded by kids. That's a "grown up time."

And I'm not suggesting that I (or any other adult) has a blanket right to tell someone else's kids how to behave. But I do have the right to what the code books describe as "reasonable peace and tranquility" for the setting. And I definitely don't have to tolerate being hit, poked, run over, kicked, or any of the other things some kids do. And I can tell the kid to stop it. I'll even reserve the right to physically intervene to stop some behavior, like the aforementioned poking, prodding, or running around. I'm not suggesting hurting or spanking someone else's kid; I am saying that I can deflect that poke, or bring that unguided missile of a kid to their parents.

 

[Lisa]

Hmmm...I am about to become unpopular here.

I have known children like this and parents. Some, I am sure would consider my children annoying at times.

However, you giving the child a dirty look and saying "don't poke me" and referring to him here as a "god-damned little rugrat" makes me wonder which one of you really has the "spoiled" problem.

Can't blame a kid for being a kid, can't blame the kid for not being an adult, because he isn't one. You, on the other hand, are. Although I don't like the mother's response, yours leaves a bad taste in my mouth as well. Children learn from what they see and experience. If an adult is giving them dirty looks and speaking to them in a tone that is "unfriendly" they are going to learn to do the same to others.

I think I would have more sympathy for your situation if you had addressed the mother in a manner that you would want to be spoken to and then, if she continued down the "mean" road, I could see your anger as being justified.

 

[Empty Hands]

So a friend and I were sat down in a restaurant and there's a table behind us crawling with parents and kids....

I was timekeeping for the freestyle portion of a tournament this last weekend. I see one 7-8 year old punch another one in the stomach while they are sitting on the mat waiting to be called. I make sure the punchee is OK, and give the puncher a dressing down. I then actually get some idiot on the sidelines trying to justify it by saying that the punchee was goofing off.

WTF?

 

[Kreth]

...kids either love me and smile and move on or they are afraid of me, and begin to cry.

Rich, first of all, I don't appreciate you calling me a kid. Secondly, I had something in my eye...



:uhyeah:

 

[little_miss_fracus]

I really don't want to be disrespectful but ... is poking you in the back at the restraunt all it takes to ruin your day?

Takes a lot more for me - like ... a flat tire on the ferry or rolling the jeep during an ice storm or having someone poke me in the back with something besides a finger. Like a knife or something. Some areas of Seattle are pretty rough. Seriously. It's the armpit of the northwest.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

It's not all bad there. The Microsoft bitterness is balanced by the Starbucks goodness.

 

[Sukerkin]

I can see a distinct divide growing out of the above string of posts and I suspect that at least a portion of it may well devolve from our own upbringings and the expectations that were placed upon us.

Because of my background, I do not buy in to the 'liberal' idea that children cannot be expected to behave because they don't know any better. By the time any child, beyond toddler age, is ambulatory and interactive enough to be moving around under their own steam and communicating, then they should have enough rudamentary social programming not to overstep the 'bounds' too markedly. That comes in large part from a sense of 'consequences' deriving from their actions (such as being aware that appropriate discipline will be in the offing for poking an unknown adult in a restaurant).

As I noted above, I was expected to adhere to adult standards of behaviour, in fact stricter boundaries in some ways as I was supposed not to come to the unwarranted attention of adults around me i.e. seen and not heard. It's old fashioned but it's orderly and it's peaceful (soto voce "So was fascism ... well, sort of").

Such regulation applied not only to me but to every child in town and, yes, we all expected any adult to take a hand in admonishing and even punishing us (I remember to this day getting a clip round the ear from an irate woman because I'd, unthinkingly, been standing there stripping leaves off her hedge :O).

Of course I'm certainly not going to try to paint a rosy picture of a town full of cherubicly behaved children {I was there for a start :blush:} but it was certainly a good deal more 'civil' than I observe these days.

I mean no direct criticism of any individual whose taken part in this discourse so far but overly tolerating a behaviour is part of the slippery slope to it being acceptable - the question becomes very broad then as it amounts to what do we want our society to unction like?

 

[Bodhisattva]

So a friend and I were sat down in a restaurant and there's a table behind us crawling with parents and kids.

Now, it's no secret to anyone who knows me that I am *not* the world's biggest fan of children, but whatever. I didn't care and could ignore the noise as long as nobody bothered me.

So of course i feel the poking in my back of some goddamn little rugrat not two minutes after I sit down.

I ignore it the once.

I turn and give him a dirty look the second.

Apparently looking back on it the mother must not have known this because it happens a third.

I don't yell, I don't swear, I may have had an annoyed tint to my voice because that's only to be expected at this point, and all's I do is turn around and say "Stop poking me".

My friend and I overhear her talking to the kid and she's saying "Oh, how ruuude...he obviously doesn't have a family..."and whatever.

Then, she gets out of her chair, leans over to me and goes "The next time you talk like *that* to my child, we're gonna have issues".

So I think about it, and decide, we're about to get our dinner, she's obviously about to leave, and it rather seems to me at this point that she has enough "issues" as it is, so I bite down on the dressing-down I *wanted* to give her, do a cost-to-benefit ratio in my head, and decide to just let her think she's won, or saved her face, or done her mother-protecting-her-cubs thing, or whatever.

So she finishes up by putting his coat on himand she's all babying him "yeah, meeean, he's meeean"( If *I* am what she is gonna teach this kid is "mean" I shudder to think what will happen when they meet a REAL "mean" person)

I'm not by nature a confrontational person.

I didn't go there wanting to have a fight, or do anything at all but have my dinner.

Most certainly I didn't go out to have someone's little **** crawl all over me.

I found it curious, you see, that all of a sudden the kid's bad behavior became *my* fault.

Now if I thought this message would reach any bad parents, I might say it somewhere else than on my blog or a forum.

But it won't. Because the people I'm referring to, think I'm referring to somebody else.

So for my own therapeutic purposes--Hey all you spoiled parents--if you have not yet properly taught your kids how to behave in public--STOP ****ING BRINGING THEM OUT IN PUBLIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*relieved sigh of annoyance being let go*

You know what the two saddest things about this are?

One, that she probably learned nothing from this.

Two, that while I was pissed for a few minutes and by the time I was
home i'd forgotten about most of it, she's still probably in her car or at home, and she's probably on the phone to her mom or girlfriends or whoever, all fuming that someone dared "Talk like *that* to her child". The horror, the horror.

Well, I wish 'em the best--they're gonna need it.

Ladies and Gentlemen--The Future of America.

I mostly hate kids and their parents in general.

 

[Bigshadow]

I'm not suggesting that the whole family leave. Nor am I suggesting that walking out is the only discipline appropriate. For example, I see a couple with two kids most weeks at church. If one gets antsy or starts to misbehave, one of the parents takes them out of the church for a few minutes (or even just walks them around the perimeter row) until they can return to their seat. If that's not enough -- I've seen them leave. It's a scaled response.

Oh, OK. That works too!