How Much Do You Need?

[MJS]

Many times, when the subject of cross training comes up, people often say that its not necessary, because there is more than enough to focus on in a single art. By doing more than one thing at the same time, you're taking away from the base art. You're taking away from being able to perfect everything in that base art.

Now, personally, I think that one shouldn't have to spend a lifetime in order to perfect something. Its not going to happen overnight either, but like I said, it shouldn't take 20 yrs. either.

Another side of the debate is when people say its better to have 5 things you can do really good, rather than 20 things that they can do fairly well. So when the mention of crosstraining comes up, thats basically adding more things, so in essence, thats more that you have to perfect.

Thoughts?

 

[Flatlander]

My thinking here is that, like all things we tend to discuss, it depends on the circumstances.

I think that in most arts, there is likely plenty of material there to keep most students busy for a long, long time, and that for the most part, most arts are reasonably well enough rounded. However, I believe that the student needs to evaluate the skill and knowledge of their instructor, and their personal training goal when making the decision to crosstrain.

Oftentimes, a student seeks the benefit of crosstraining instructors, as opposed to arts. Because of the proliferation of training halls, non-experts taking on the instructor role, and the uniqueness of each student, it can be exceptionally challenging to find 'exactly the right instruction' for what the student needs or desires. So, there are circumstances where the student may be perfectly happy with their chosen art, but would like the experience of a different instructor to help round out their teaching.

Those are the first ideas that came to mind. Interesting topic, Mike. :asian:

 

[kidswarrior]

Wouldn't even begin to try to determine what another Martial Artist might need--or want. Don't know enough about all the arts out there, nor all the instructors in those arts (and certainly not every MA). Might be that one instructor could teach one curriculum in a way that it's enough for a lifetime of study for someone. Could also be that an art is rich in depth, but one's instructor is less experienced, so not able to convey everything about the art (and it's not always determined by the instructor's belt rankings, title, or years of study). Could just be some students hunger for a particular area of study that's not well-represented in their base art (e.g., grappling in a primarily striking art).

So, I would not begrudge any student the opportunity to cross train as she or he had the urge. I do encourage my own students, however, to get a decent foundation from me before adding a second art. I like to see them make green belt (between blue and brown) or higher. And this is just so they don't get scrambled brains.

Now for myself, I was very fortunate that a slight dissatisfaction with the fighting aspect of the SK studio where I was studying was what I considered less than authentic (read: wouldn't work on the street without modification). So, in keeping my eyes open, discovered kung fu san soo nearby, had the money to do both (though not much left over), and KFSS certainly had the street bona fides. Cross trained in both for about four years, and while hard, was the best thing that could have happened to me. SK was about safety, conditioning, fun and fellowship, and oh yeah, some MA. KFSS was about straight out combat---not even self-defense, just war-torn-street combat. Many of the moves would get one locked up as well as sued in civil court till you were homeless. So, opposite ends of the street 'reality' continuum, and the overall thesis/antithesis/synthesis was the foundation for what I continue to study and teach today.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :boing1:

 

[Adept]

Another side of the debate is when people say its better to have 5 things you can do really good, rather than 20 things that they can do fairly well. So when the mention of crosstraining comes up, thats basically adding more things, so in essence, thats more that you have to perfect.

To take this analogy and run with it...

Sure, being able to do five things perfectly is great, and it will serve you well so long as you only ever need to do those five things.

My opinion is that it is a big bad world out there, and you can't count on being able to get by on a limited (even if perfected) skill-set. Whether you re-examine a single art to get the most out of it, or take techniques from multiple arts, it is important to be comfortable and competent at all ranges of fighting.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Sure, being able to do five things perfectly is great, and it will serve you well so long as you only ever need to do those five things.

how true

now my thoughts on the matter are if you want to learn a martial art you need to stay with in that art untill you at least reach black belt level then if yu want to expand your knowledge or feel that something is missing you should consider cross training or changing styles

 

[Shotochem]

Another side of the debate is when people say its better to have 5 things you can do really good, rather than 20 things that they can do fairly well. So when the mention of crosstraining comes up, thats basically adding more things, so in essence, thats more that you have to perfect.

Thoughts?

Only 5 things? I personally like variety. I felt like I was treading water not going anywhere. For me training constantly on the same thing after a while made my skills plateau.

The only way I have started to progress and enjoy myself again is with a new art supplemented by the training seminar of the day that happens to interest me.

This is the extent of my cross training. If I really like something else I'll and a few regular classes to the mix time permitting.

-Marc-

 

[Xue Sheng]

First I do not think that in 5, 10, 20 or even 50 years you can perfect any style. You and get very good, but you will never be perfect at it and you will never stop learning.

As to training multiple styles, it depends on what the practitioner wants to get out of it, what their personal goal is.

I currently train 3 styles; Yang Taijiquan, Hebei Xingyiquan and Sanda and I am currently wondering if the 3 different styles do not conflict thereby interfere with each other when it comes to actually understanding any of them well. Although I do see many similarities between them I also see major differences in the various approaches to confrontation and use of strength (internal and external). And in all styles there are greater than 5 or even 20 things to learn.

And yes it can take a lifetime to train a style or you can train several but again it depends on the practitioner. There is no way better than the other here in my opinion.

 

[Andrew Green]

Well, what is going to come in handy more often, knowing plumbing REALLY well, or having a general knowledge of plumbing, electrical, carpentry and mechanics?

Unless you want a career in one, knowing one really well will just leave you paying other people everytime something breaks, and the odd time your plumbing is the problem, it was probably something simple anyways.

But how much do we need? We don't need any, this is a hobby. It's like asking how many video games you need to play, master one or get good at a bunch. Who cares? Just have fun

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Learning new ideals is one thing but its a simple thing really. You need to learn the dynamics of the style, how techniques work with technique and not just strength. Why does a certain joint lock work and what makes it work.

Maybe even cross training in one other style isn't bad but people really overdue it sometimes.

 

[rutherford]

It depends highly on your goals. If your goal is to be really good in a single art, then you might need to cross train in order to broaden your horizons and upon your return see things in your original art in a new manner. Or, it might not be advisable at all to cross train because it's taking time away from your goal of practicing your chosen art.

If your goal is more about a particular skill or attribute development, then your travels might take you through many different arts or cycling through a few in order to focus on your individual goals.

 

[Flying Crane]

Depends on what you want. If all you want to know is how to fight face-to-face, then you need very little. If you want to be able to fight professionally, then you need a bit more. If you want to be able to defend yourself on the street, you need some more than that, because self defense against an attacker can take a wider variety of forms and you need a broader base to be able to deal with that.

I have studied several arts over the years. If I had remained focused on only one, I am sure I would be much better at that one. But I would know nothing about the others. I refer to this as "the curse of the perpetually curious", or TCPC, or simply "the curse". I find myself fascinated by the different methods, so I keep studying them, even if it means I am spread thin.

I don't cross train out of a perceived need to fill holes on one style or other. I just cross train because I enjoy it and I find it interesting.

My White Crane sifu always said that if you just want to fight, all you need is two or three of our punches, and the ability to use them rapidly and creatively. But the art has a lot more in it than just those punches.

Tracy kenpo has hundreds of Self Defense techniques, designed against particular types of attacks. Are they all necessary? I am sure not. You could probably whittle it down to 50 or so, and have a great arsenal of stuff to take care of yourself. But there is much more than that in the system.

Yes, you could easily spend a lifetime working on one art. If you find that satisfactory, great.

Or, you can study multiple arts. Maybe someday you will decide to focus on the art that you like the best. But that wide experience gives you the knowledge to make that decision. This is common in the Chinese arts.

What you really need is very little. But there is a whole lot out there, and at least to me, it is fascinating.

 

[The Kidd]

Many times, when the subject of cross training comes up, people often say that its not necessary, because there is more than enough to focus on in a single art. By doing more than one thing at the same time, you're taking away from the base art. You're taking away from being able to perfect everything in that base art.

Now, personally, I think that one shouldn't have to spend a lifetime in order to perfect something. Its not going to happen overnight either, but like I said, it shouldn't take 20 yrs. either.

Another side of the debate is when people say its better to have 5 things you can do really good, rather than 20 things that they can do fairly well. So when the mention of crosstraining comes up, thats basically adding more things, so in essence, thats more that you have to perfect.

Thoughts?

The premise might be faulty, are you trying to become the best Tae Kwon Doist, Kung Fuist, Kenpoist, or are you trying to become the best Martial Artist? The Martial Arts are made up of more than one art and you may need to study others to get a better understanding of them all or the one you most prefer.

 

[terryl965]

MJS I believe in the saying it is better to be a true Master of oneself than a meer image of everybody else.

What I mean by this is simple if you want to be the place flute player than do not play the saxaphone, I f you want to be able to play all wind instruments a little than learn them all, but remember in doing them all you cannot become the Master of the flute.

 

[jdinca]

Depends on the wants and needs of the individual. For me personally, I'm in a comprehensive system that has so much to offer, I will never learn it all and I will never totally perfect what I will know, but therein lies the attraction. I will constantly get better and what I've learned from day one and I will always have something new to strive for.

 

[zDom]

I agree that getting a black belt in one art before crosstraining can be very beneficial.

The discipline that comes with practicing a technique beyond getting a basic idea of it (some say 1,000 reps), beyond boredom, to the point of truly getting a solid understanding (some say 10,000 reps!) will establish habits that will then be carried over to the study of other techniques.

Not to mention the epiphanies about techniques that happen only after repeating them thousands and thousands of times ...

 

[searcher]

Though I am a fan of variety and of cross-training, I would like to add a comment on the "5 things" you do very well.

Years ago I got the chance to train with My Chito-ryu instructors first students. We were doing some kickboxing and my instructor said that the other guy had one really good technique to watch for. And he was right. This guy had poor to mediocre technique and skill with all of his skills minus one. He had an unbelievable nack for placing his right hand into your mouth every time. He had little to no skill, but man he ahd a great right hand.


Now for myself, I have certain techniques I tend to rely on, even though I try to be at least what I would consider mediocre on all of my techniques. I am a firm believer in training all ofyour techniques to at least amintain them in muscle memory, but you should always have a handful that you know will work when you need them.

 

[Robert Lee]

I do not think a person needs a large amount of tools to fight well. 5 hands 4 to 5 kicks a clench set knees head but elbows. And the ground there to about 5 sets This makes for a rounded fighter The military does not want to train its soldiers in something that would take years to get good enough at to use in war or missions. Sure set styles offer many training tools. Each person will not asorb it all just bits that best meet there need. It should be that way. What you alone find useful and helps you thats is all yours. Others find theres Instruction offers the source you find the need. Be it staying with 1 style or cross training to add other needs you find useful. We do not just add we all find something that helps us The other that is taught learned is put say on the shelf for teaching and future needs but not part of the key need that suits us the induvidual. Style is not being a robot to be told do it this way only But a source of learning, Can you name what you do when you do it , To me its my way it came from a style name and other styles also but at the time it is what I do or did NO name to it. Its fine to cross train Better to not have to learn a new style to find what you need. Ask the instructor to train you in the ares you want to work if cross training. Less time better results you base style and cross training should blend not conflict by what some see as switching. In a fight you never have time to think of the switch you just find the blend and work it and go from there. If a person is happy the way they are training 1 style for a life time fine. But they mifght look back at the founder and notice most often the founder looked at other styles and chose from them what he best saw that would help him and his students. Means most all style founders cross trained to a certion level.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Twenty plus years ago....many Sensi's did not believe in cross training. Most teachers did not want other people telling this is the right way to do it.

Today we know most Martial arts are NOT all purpose. Each has it's limitations. The Mix martial arts fighting has shown that you need to be a all around fighter to be more successful.

Boxing is an art, wrestling is and art.....so is Karate. To be a complete martial arts...one now knows fighting can be stand up or ground fighting.

How much do you NEED? .......endless...the learning/training will never stop. Sure what you are learning will work on the streets most times....karate,judo,bjj,boxing,ta kwon do, and so on...all have been proven to be good form of self-defense training.

At the same time: It is the person skills,physcial condition,mental condition,instincts for survival that will be very inportant here.

The next factor is: What you will NEED? To survive? .....the unknown will be the Attactor/or attactors' how much do they know about fighting?

If they are good in street fighting...than this is one story (need much knowledge)

If unskill?....you will most likely WIN!

How much you need will depends ON WHO YOU ARE FIGHTING!

Best to learn about be humble, awareness, avoidance, RUNNING! ...How must of this you need to learn....I say at least a 9 (nine)..ok 8.....Aloha

 

[MJS]

Wouldn't even begin to try to determine what another Martial Artist might need--or want. Don't know enough about all the arts out there, nor all the instructors in those arts (and certainly not every MA). Might be that one instructor could teach one curriculum in a way that it's enough for a lifetime of study for someone. Could also be that an art is rich in depth, but one's instructor is less experienced, so not able to convey everything about the art (and it's not always determined by the instructor's belt rankings, title, or years of study). Could just be some students hunger for a particular area of study that's not well-represented in their base art (e.g., grappling in a primarily striking art).

Nice reply! I cross train in a few things. My theory has always been that there is so much out there, why limit yourself? See what else is out there. Who knows, you may find value in the way someone else does a certain move and if you can add it to your own bag of tricks, you just got that much better.

So, I would not begrudge any student the opportunity to cross train as she or he had the urge. I do encourage my own students, however, to get a decent foundation from me before adding a second art. I like to see them make green belt (between blue and brown) or higher. And this is just so they don't get scrambled brains.

Likewise. I think that starting too early can lead to some confusion.

Now for myself, I was very fortunate that a slight dissatisfaction with the fighting aspect of the SK studio where I was studying was what I considered less than authentic (read: wouldn't work on the street without modification). So, in keeping my eyes open, discovered kung fu san soo nearby, had the money to do both (though not much left over), and KFSS certainly had the street bona fides. Cross trained in both for about four years, and while hard, was the best thing that could have happened to me. SK was about safety, conditioning, fun and fellowship, and oh yeah, some MA. KFSS was about straight out combat---not even self-defense, just war-torn-street combat. Many of the moves would get one locked up as well as sued in civil court till you were homeless. So, opposite ends of the street 'reality' continuum, and the overall thesis/antithesis/synthesis was the foundation for what I continue to study and teach today.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :boing1:

 

[MJS]

To take this analogy and run with it...

Sure, being able to do five things perfectly is great, and it will serve you well so long as you only ever need to do those five things.

Good point. Typically, people say how can you be prepared for everything. IMO, I'd rather be over prepared than under.

My opinion is that it is a big bad world out there, and you can't count on being able to get by on a limited (even if perfected) skill-set. Whether you re-examine a single art to get the most out of it, or take techniques from multiple arts, it is important to be comfortable and competent at all ranges of fighting.

I coudln't agree more.