Observations

[Bill Mattocks]

Since I've been away from MT for awhile, here are a few of the things I have been thinking about. No one to talk to about it, so it kind of builds up, you know?

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Sometimes, knowing how to defend oneself is the best way to avoid having to defend oneself. The better you get at hurting people, the better you get at avoiding having to do so, or wanting to.

Likewise, the more you become able to hurt people, the less you want to do so.

Corollary; if you enjoy inflicting pain, you will never truly master doing so. You will deny that to yourself.

True martial arts training perfects one's character as it goes, like a cleansing fire.

Being aware of one's surroundings is not only good self-defense; it allows you to focus less on yourself, which in itself is good self-defense of another sort.

No one understands lifetime martial artists except other lifetime martial artists. We're like stamp collectors that way.

Technique is the most important thing. No, application is the most important thing. No, technique is the most important thing. The internal argument is endless. Then results come along and kick all butts. What are results? Technique applied effectively, that's what. Imagine that. Like a Reese's peanut butter cup; you have to have peanut butter and chocolate.

Kata (forms) is the soul of martial arts. If you don't like them, you don't understand them. If you don't like them and think you understand them, you don't understand them. Ever break in a baseball glove without catching a ball a thousand times in it? Ever perfect a baseball swing without swinging the bat, even at air?

When you think your technique works, it can be tested, and it either does or it does not. No excuses.

If your technique does not work, it may not mean that it's not a good technique. If it's been around for a long time and other can make it work, it might be that you aren't applying it correctly. Get correction and try again.

Sure, you think about martial arts all the time. What else is there to think about? Life is a martial art. One you will never master, but ain't it fun to try?

Jumping from one martial arts style to another is like buying many tiny umbrellas. None of them will keep you as dry as one large umbrella when the rain comes, but if it's a collection of umbrellas you're after, go for it.

Practice more. When you think you have practiced enough, practice more.

The more you know, the more you know that you do not know. Eventually you draw near to a state of complete emptiness. Or so I suspect.

Humility is funny. You need it, you know you need it, but the more you try to humble yourself, the more it eludes you. The less you believe yourself to be master of, the more possibilities you open yourself to; but it's so difficult to do. Not hard to learn; hard to make space inside your ego to allow learning to enter.

Another way of saying the above - pride is the enemy of effective learning.

As an assistance, try to remember that no one can fill a cup that is full already, even if it's full of nothing useful. Empty your cup; your instructor cannot share his or her wine until you dump out your water.

Those Zen guys were on to something.

 

[GiYu - Todd]

I concur

 

[harlan]

In a perfect world...I'd like to think so. Unfortunately, the assumption is that the character being perfected is a good one.

Corollary; if you enjoy inflicting pain, you will never truly master doing so. You will deny that to yourself.

True martial arts training perfects one's character as it goes, like a cleansing fire.

QUOTE]

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In a perfect world...I'd like to think so. Unfortunately, the assumption is that the character being perfected is a good one.

True martial arts training perfects one's character as it goes. If you feel it has not done so, either the training is not pure, or the character in question needs more time in the fire.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Those Zen guys were on to something.

Yes, yes they were

 

[Argus]

Some great thoughts! I had the urge to comment on them individually:

Sometimes, knowing how to defend oneself is the best way to avoid having to defend oneself. The better you get at hurting people, the better you get at avoiding having to do so, or wanting to.

A very valid point, and one that stems from a general awareness - both of what happens in a fight, as well as being more aware and perceptive of your surroundings to begin with, and/or habitually positioning and carrying yourself in a safer manner. And I've found this practiced awareness and habit of safety goes far beyond just self defense as we generally think of it, and extends itself into other potentially life-threatening activities we engage in on a daily basis, such as driving.

Likewise, the more you become able to hurt people, the less you want to do so.

That is generally true, especially in the context of Martial Arts training. I think it comes, again, from having more awareness of the consequences of violence. Or, perhaps just from having the opportunity to think about and examine that element. Those who are most prone to engaging in violence are those who do not respect it, and haven't reflected on the nature and consequences of it.

And this kind of awareness can be expanded on as you expand your own martial training. For example, I was originally only concerned with the potential consequences of being punched, kicked, or wrestled to the ground. But after venturing into Filipino Martial Arts, I've become far more mindful of how weapons may be involved, how they function differently from empty hands, and the much more serious and gruesome consequences of that.

Corollary; if you enjoy inflicting pain, you will never truly master doing so. You will deny that to yourself.

Hmm... I think that can be argued, but somehow I agree with you intuitively. I don't think that many people -- even those with bad intentions, truly enjoy inflicting pain, though...

True martial arts training perfects one's character as it goes, like a cleansing fire.

Now this is a big one that is sometimes overlooked. Learning, training, and becoming proficient in Martial Arts is a process of self-examination and self improvement, both of which are processes (and an accompanying mindset) that is often sorely lacking in modern society. There are of course also the students who just go through the motions and don't really take it upon themselves to become more self-aware, examine their practice, and strive to improve themselves, but there are many who do, and at some point or another, I think most people who stick with martial arts make these efforts.

Being aware of one's surroundings is not only good self-defense; it allows you to focus less on yourself, which in itself is good self-defense of another sort.

Yep! As per my driving example.
Also, as martial arts is often about forming good habits, I've found that I've extended that practice to other areas of life, and can easily replace bad habits with good ones by "training" myself to do things in a better way. And, it's not just about correcting bad habits, either - you can use it to create a new habit to address a certain problem that you find yourself falling into. It's quite a powerful ability to consciously form and reform habits, having them work for us, rather than being at their mercy and never even recognizing them.
As for safety, it's also a habitual mindset - where you place yourself, and how you conduct yourself. Things can always slip by your awareness, and some psychological types are simply less focused on external senses than others by their very nature; but with good habits, you can place yourself such that you are less likely to be caught vulnerable, unaware, or without the time and space to react.

No one understands lifetime martial artists except other lifetime martial artists. We're like stamp collectors that way.

Hm! I'd argue that! I think there are plenty of other people who, say, practice and refine their craft and gain valuable life lessons from it just as we do. Though, it's definitely a more common thing among martial artists, I'll agree!

Technique is the most important thing. No, application is the most important thing. No, technique is the most important thing. The internal argument is endless. Then results come along and kick all butts. What are results? Technique applied effectively, that's what. Imagine that. Like a Reese's peanut butter cup; you have to have peanut butter and chocolate.

I actually disagree on this point.
Technique is secondary. "Understanding" is the most important thing. There are plenty of martial arts practitioners who have all of the technical knowledge, and know all of the techniques, but don't understand them, how, why, and when they work, how they might be adapted, and how they connect with or flow into other things. An understanding of how to use and apply the art, and how to solve problems intuitively and recognize and take opportunities in the moment, using whatever level of knowledge you have, is more important than simply having all of the knowledge and not understanding how to use it or how to train to make better use of it.

Kata (forms) is the soul of martial arts. If you don't like them, you don't understand them. If you don't like them and think you understand them, you don't understand them. Ever break in a baseball glove without catching a ball a thousand times in it? Ever perfect a baseball swing without swinging the bat, even at air?

This is true for Martial Arts that actually contain Kata, or forms. There are plenty of systems, both traditional and non traditional, that don't utilize forms, though. The key here, and the better point to make, I think, is not to merely write off anything. Kata often suffer as a method of any meaningful practice or transfer of knowledge/understanding because people write it off as some "traditional dance" that has no relevance to how they fight. Without seeking an understanding of something, and by simply writing it off, you are ensuring that you have nothing to gain from it. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Forms often contain the very principles and concepts, as well as general approach to fighting, or "goal/aims" of a system, as well as the technical knowledge presented. Many martial artists make the mistake of looking no deeper than what's on the surface, and never questioning, examining, or trying to understand the essence of what is there.

When you think your technique works, it can be tested, and it either does or it does not. No excuses.

And if it doesn't, it is more often your understanding of the technique, rather than the technique itself which is lacking.

If your technique does not work, it may not mean that it's not a good technique. If it's been around for a long time and other can make it work, it might be that you aren't applying it correctly. Get correction and try again.

Oh, I see you made that point
It can also be that you are applying it in the wrong way, and in the wrong context. It often happens that a training partner feeds us the wrong energy, the wrong line and angle, or some other factor that causes a particular technique that you're practicing to be a sub-optimal response. And when that's the case, you should intuitively change or respond with something more appropriate, and explain to your partner why you did this, so that he can both understand the original technique better, and feed his next training partner better - and maybe learn how to throw in more adversity and/or utilize the technique better under pressure in future training.

The worst thing you can do is to try to make a technique work in a way that it's not meant to be used, and this happens a lot. You can sometimes do that, but at the expense of the technique itself, as well as the expense of your own understanding.

Sure, you think about martial arts all the time. What else is there to think about? Life is a martial art. One you will never master, but ain't it fun to try?

Yep! It's about a mindset of ever continual improvement and understanding

Jumping from one martial arts style to another is like buying many tiny umbrellas. None of them will keep you as dry as one large umbrella when the rain comes, but if it's a collection of umbrellas you're after, go for it.

Yes and no. It's a good idea to have a broad experience in the martial arts to open your mind and become more aware of what's out there. As traditional styles are concerned, it's probably a good idea to focus on one or two, but you can bring to that art a much broader and more informed understanding if you have experience in other arts as well. Also, while it is rare, there are some arts that do complement each-other, rather than conflict, and it can be quite beneficial to practice both such arts given that condition.

Practice more. When you think you have practiced enough, practice more.

But remember, only perfect practice makes perfect. Sometimes more practice of the wrong thing can merely set you back!
And, be aware of just what you're practicing. A lot of people ingrain all kinds of habits in their practice without ever being aware that they are doing so - both good, and, often, not so good habits.

The more you know, the more you know that you do not know. Eventually you draw near to a state of complete emptiness. Or so I suspect.

Yep. This is the process of becoming more aware, and, as a result of becoming more aware of what really is, you come to understand how little you actually know. That's humility, and it's important in order to learn and improve. Only an empty cup can be filled.

Humility is funny. You need it, you know you need it, but the more you try to humble yourself, the more it eludes you. The less you believe yourself to be master of, the more possibilities you open yourself to; but it's so difficult to do. Not hard to learn; hard to make space inside your ego to allow learning to enter.

Actually, I find humility is something of an effort that you have to make. I mean, true humility is more of an inherent and ingrained thing -- an understanding, or awareness. But in the beginning, as you realize that you would benefit from being more humble, it is important and useful to remind yourself that you may not know as much as you think you do, and to keep an open mind and entertain the possibility that you might be wrong, and become more aware of even how and where you might be wrong. This builds a very astute awareness, and cultivates a mindset that is essential to self-improvement and true understanding.

Another way of saying the above - pride is the enemy of effective learning.

Most certainly! I'm sure many people, even here, will want to argue this, but there is no greater truth.

As an assistance, try to remember that no one can fill a cup that is full already, even if it's full of nothing useful. Empty your cup; your instructor cannot share his or her wine until you dump out your water.

As old as this adage is, it's quite profound, and sound logic. I'd challenge anyone to argue otherwise, and happily and humbly discuss and explore their view with my own empty cup

Those Zen guys were on to something.

They most certainly were!

 

[Touch Of Death]

True martial arts training perfects one's character as it goes. If you feel it has not done so, either the training is not pure, or the character in question needs more time in the fire.

There is no such thing a true training, only so so, and much better. or great. Cultural training is nice, but it doesn't true your motion, any. If you are in ancient 'where ever', and you know a great battle is coming, you don't waste a lot of time teaching newbies respect for human life.

 

[Argus]

There is no such thing a true training, only so so, and much better. or great. Cultural training is nice, but it doesn't true your motion, any. If you are in ancient 'where ever', and you know a great battle is coming, you don't waste a lot of time teaching newbies respect for human life.

I'd say those elements come from training earnestly - that is, from training the martial side of the art. When we go too far to emphasize and abstract the "meaning" of training a martial art, we run the risk of obscuring and mystifying that very thing, and replacing it with something artificial instead.

 

[lklawson]

True martial arts training perfects one's character as it goes, like a cleansing fire.

Some martial arts were developed in cultures that do not necessarily hold this to be a truism.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Bill Mattocks]

There is no such thing a true training, only so so, and much better. or great. Cultural training is nice, but it doesn't true your motion, any. If you are in ancient 'where ever', and you know a great battle is coming, you don't waste a lot of time teaching newbies respect for human life.

I do not live in those times. If all I needed to know was how to take a human life, I already know that. If all I sought was self-defense, I'd carry a gun.

There is something more, but it's deeper than the self-defense and more important to me than merely staying alive. True training, to me, is that training which approaches meditation or prayer in terms of a path to my poor understanding of the term 'satori'. Not a lot different from the dervish or fakir whose outer shell is less important than their inner life. I don't claim to have achieved anything like that, of course. I am a rank beginner, but sometimes I think I've peeked under the tent flap and seen the elephants and lions inside.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Some martial arts were developed in cultures that do not necessarily hold this to be a truism.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I'm not sure that matters. Iron ore is purified in the refiner's fire; the intent of the ore may not really matter, nor that of the flames.

 

[lklawson]

I'm not sure that matters. Iron ore is purified in the refiner's fire; the intent of the ore may not really matter, nor that of the flames.

In that case I guess it depends on what you mean by "perfecting one's character" and by "refining" it.

Genghis Khan is reported to have been an exceptionally skilled martial artist who dedicated a lot of time an energy to his martial arts. He also murdered hundreds of thousands of people, conquered vast areas, and raped so many women that 1 out of 200 men in china is a direct descendant of his. While his character may have been perfected, I'm not sure that it's a perfection which I much care for.

Or maybe Roman Gladiators. Their dedication (sometimes voluntary) to martial arts is nearly unparalleled. Their entire life, from sleeping to eating to every waking moment, was dedicated to martial arts, which they employed, famously, to entertain the blood lust of bored roman citizens. "We who are about to die salute you."

Or perhaps the Greek Laconians (Spartans). Widely acknowledged as one of the preeminent martial arts cultures of the time, they practiced a particularly aggressive form of breeding eugenics which included the Elders viewing all newborns for defects and chucking the ones who didn't make the cut into a pit. "Defects" include such things as "not crying loudly enough." They also encouraged Spartan boys, in training in the Algoge to sneak out in the dead of night and murder someone in the Peasant class; the only crime was getting caught. Spartan life, like the Gladiators, revolved around martial arts and their application.

The Aztecs, the Celts, the Babylonians, etc. The list is quite long.

To be honest, my read of history has me convinced that our modern notion of martial arts perfecting one's character is an aberration rather than the norm.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In that case I guess it depends on what you mean by "perfecting one's character" and by "refining" it.

Or perhaps what is meant by martial arts. I am aware of your definition and it's hard to argue with the accuracy of your statements. Yet there are other ways of thinking about martial arts.

 

[Touch Of Death]

In that case I guess it depends on what you mean by "perfecting one's character" and by "refining" it.

Genghis Khan is reported to have been an exceptionally skilled martial artist who dedicated a lot of time an energy to his martial arts. He also murdered hundreds of thousands of people, conquered vast areas, and raped so many women that 1 out of 200 men in china is a direct descendant of his. While his character may have been perfected, I'm not sure that it's a perfection which I much care for.

Or maybe Roman Gladiators. Their dedication (sometimes voluntary) to martial arts is nearly unparalleled. Their entire life, from sleeping to eating to every waking moment, was dedicated to martial arts, which they employed, famously, to entertain the blood lust of bored roman citizens. "We who are about to die salute you."

Or perhaps the Greek Laconians (Spartans). Widely acknowledged as one of the preeminent martial arts cultures of the time, they practiced a particularly aggressive form of breeding eugenics which included the Elders viewing all newborns for defects and chucking the ones who didn't make the cut into a pit. "Defects" include such things as "not crying loudly enough." They also encouraged Spartan boys, in training in the Algoge to sneak out in the dead of night and murder someone in the Peasant class; the only crime was getting caught. Spartan life, like the Gladiators, revolved around martial arts and their application.

The Aztecs, the Celts, the Babylonians, etc. The list is quite long.

To be honest, my read of history has me convinced that our modern notion of martial arts perfecting one's character is an aberration rather than the norm.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Sparta was not known for being family friendly, and what is more important than family?

 

[Xue Sheng]

In that case I guess it depends on what you mean by "perfecting one's character" and by "refining" it.

Genghis Khan is reported to have been an exceptionally skilled martial artist who dedicated a lot of time an energy to his martial arts. He also murdered hundreds of thousands of people, conquered vast areas, and raped so many women that 1 out of 200 men in china is a direct descendant of his. While his character may have been perfected, I'm not sure that it's a perfection which I much care for.

Or maybe Roman Gladiators. Their dedication (sometimes voluntary) to martial arts is nearly unparalleled. Their entire life, from sleeping to eating to every waking moment, was dedicated to martial arts, which they employed, famously, to entertain the blood lust of bored roman citizens. "We who are about to die salute you."

Or perhaps the Greek Laconians (Spartans). Widely acknowledged as one of the preeminent martial arts cultures of the time, they practiced a particularly aggressive form of breeding eugenics which included the Elders viewing all newborns for defects and chucking the ones who didn't make the cut into a pit. "Defects" include such things as "not crying loudly enough." They also encouraged Spartan boys, in training in the Algoge to sneak out in the dead of night and murder someone in the Peasant class; the only crime was getting caught. Spartan life, like the Gladiators, revolved around martial arts and their application.

The Aztecs, the Celts, the Babylonians, etc. The list is quite long.

To be honest, my read of history has me convinced that our modern notion of martial arts perfecting one's character is an aberration rather than the norm.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Was it called martial arts during the time of Genghis Khan, the Roman Gladiators, or Sparta.... were they training what we now refer to martial arts for the same reasons?

You are comparing ancient warriors and conquerors of the past, who had to fight well or die, to the guy that goes to a Judo class twice a week in 2015. If you want to make that comparison I recommend you look to those that are currently training combative in the military

 

[Buka]

True martial arts training perfects one's character as it goes, like a cleansing fire.

This. The best part of Martial training as far as I'm concerned.

As for old Genghis, he never would have survived in the projects.

 

[Gnarlie]

I have some observations too.

It is almost impossible for me to turn around like a normal person.

I no longer care what people think when they catch me practicing in the lift because it has the only mirror.

I can't remember the point at which superglue became an acceptable treatment for blisters on the balls of my feet. But it did.

I have several default hand positions. None of them are in the range of hand positions of a normal person.

I select furniture based on three factors: comfort, practicality, and practicality as a stretching aid.

When I meditate, it feels a bit like I have been sent for timeout in the naughty corner. But it works.

Giving everything in training and being pretty OK at martial arts won't make you pretty OK at life. You have to take those lessons over if you want to be happy.


Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Gnarlie]

Seriously though Bill Mattocks, it is great to see you back here. I hope you are doing OK. Your post resonated.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[lklawson]

Or perhaps what is meant by martial arts. I am aware of your definition and it's hard to argue with the accuracy of your statements. Yet there are other ways of thinking about martial arts.

Yup. I agree. I guess it's important to define "martial art" then too. Of course, in my experience, I'd have to add a "good luck with that" caveat. It's just such a broad and far reaching subject. Your definition is martial arts. But so are the definitions which aren't the same as yours. Are Gladiatorial arts different in method and goals from what you are doing/wanting? Yes. Are they both "martial arts?" Yes.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Was it called martial arts during the time of Genghis Khan, the Roman Gladiators, or Sparta.... were they training what we now refer to martial arts for the same reasons?

You are comparing ancient warriors and conquerors of the past, who had to fight well or die, to the guy that goes to a Judo class twice a week in 2015. If you want to make that comparison I recommend you look to those that are currently training combative in the military

OK, how about Greek Pankration, Wrestling, and Boxing? Those were what many today would prefer to call "Matial Sports." But people still trained to it as a lifestyle and it wasn't exactly unheard of for participants to die during competitions.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk