Kenpo ideology compared to other arts...

[Flying Crane]

I am starting this thread due to another thread currently going on in Martialtalk's sister forum, Kenpotalk. I would like to hear some input from Non-Kenpoists, regarding some comments that were posted over in KT. Regardless of what art other than kenpo you study, I would appreciate your input. Kenpo people are, of course, also welcome to comment, but I really want to see some different perspectives.

This particular thread on KT deals with being "Black Dot focused" vs. "White Dot Focused", as an art. A definition was posted, taken from Ed Parker's Encyclopedia of Kenpo (a book which I have not read, but is popular among various branches of the kenpo tree). That definition is as follows:

Black Dot Focus: Our Kenpo concept of focus. We visualize a black dot on a white background, representing total awareness. Our concern is not only with maximizing power, but in protection as well.

White Dot Focus: In this concept of focus one visualizes a white dot on a black background representing unawareness. All styles and systems that primarily stress linear motion conform to this concept. Their concern is with the target, and with maximizing power-not protection.

My interest lies mostly with the defininion of White Dot Focus, and the accusation that this, as an implied inferior approach, is what most other arts, especially linear arts, are. It implies that kenpo is superior in approach as an art, and that kenpo somehow has a monopoly on total awareness.

Personally, as a kenpo guy, I don't buy this assertion. I felt it would be fair for the non-kenpoists to weigh in on this debate. I look forward to hearing what you all might have to say.

The thread on Kenpotalk is found here, for anyone interested in reviewing what has been said so far:

http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4165

Thanks, everyone.

 

[Empty Hands]

Alright, I study EPAK, but I have no idea how the visualization schemes match what they represent (i.e. black dot with awareness vs. white dot with unawareness).

Help me out?

 

[almost a ghost]

White dot focus? Black dot focus? It sounds like just a bunch of propaghanda to make ken/mpo sound far superior to other arts.

 

[Flying Crane]

The way I understand it, it is really symbolic. A black dot on a white background represents the object of focus, the dot, in the center, but the white surrounding it represents the idea that you maintain awareness of everything else around it, even while keeping your focus on the object. Keeping in the light, so to speak. So if you are fighting an opponent, you still are aware of your surroundings, and any problems or advantages they may provide. When you are fighting, even tho you may be trying to punch him in the face, you still detect his kick coming up from below, and successfully defend against it.

A white dot on a black background represents a complete focus on the object (the dot), but the blackness around it represents sort of a tunnel vision, a lack of attention to the surroundings, fighting in the dark. Problems that the surroundings may give you will go unnoticed, and you will fall prey to them. Advantages that the surroundings may provide are unnoticed, and you lose that opportunity. You are so focused on punching the opponent in the face, that you don't see his kick come up from below.

At least this is how I am interpreting it. This definition in my first post, apparently from Mr. Parker's encyclopedia, seems to imply, at least to me, that other arts lack awareness of one's surroundings, and (perhaps) only kenpo trains in such a way as to maintain awareness of one's surroundings in a confrontation. If I misunderstand this, then it is my own shortcoming. But this is how I am understanding it.

So I am curious to see how others would characterize the training in their own arts. Do they feel they develop a sort of "tunnel vision", or are they aware of their surroundings, even when in the heat of battle? Does this White Dot description accurately portray their art?

 

[Steel Tiger]

I am a bagua practitioner and it has circular motion not linear ones so it must, according to the definition given above, be a black dot focused art. A closely associated art is that of xingyi which is extremely linear in its approach (that is why bagua and xingyi are often taught together - the whole yin/yang thing) but I would never describe it as being entirely focused on maximizing power at the expence of protection. The nei jia simply aren't like that.

 

[Empty Hands]

The way I understand it, it is really symbolic. A black dot on a white background...

Thanks for educating the yellow-belt n00b. As for myself, I do tend to develop a very white-dot focus during single-opponent sparring, so clearly EPAK isn't magical in making its practictioners "black dot". However, I am through training and effort expanding my field of awareness - I don't get those surprise kicks so much anymore! It does seem like this approach is through my own mental effort, as opposed to the tenets of the art. At least so far then I agree with you that this tends to be a more individual rather than art-centered aspect - but I am just a beginner.

 

[Ceicei]

Although I study Kenpo, what I intend to say is not specific to Kenpo. Your original post reminded me of something.

What I'm saying is when there is a confrontation that causes an adrenaline dump, the people in the middle of the confrontation tend to focus upon the problem (such as the attacker). Sometimes their focus becomes so intense that the surroundings and background are almost shut out. They may not be aware of certain details (sound, placement of things, etc.) that happened at the same moment.

This is a phenomena that is fairly common within law enforcement circles occurring from shootings as well as some soldiers in the combat zone. It would not be too difficult to extrapolate this to martial artists in a defensive situation.

It is possible that Mr. Parker may have been thinking about this when he tried to make his white dot/black dot analogy. There are many who study kenpo never having experienced a life threatening situation and an attempt to explain this would be difficult without the analogy.

- Ceicei

 

[kidswarrior]

Although I study Kenpo, what I intend to say is not specific to Kenpo. Your original post reminded me of something.

What I'm saying is when there is a confrontation that causes an adrenaline dump, the people in the middle of the confrontation tend to focus upon the problem (such as the attacker). Sometimes their focus becomes so intense that the surroundings and background are almost shut out. They may not be aware of certain details (sound, placement of things, etc.) that happened at the same moment.

This is a phenomena that is fairly common within law enforcement circles occurring from shootings as well as some soldiers in the combat zone. It would not be too difficult to extrapolate this to martial artists in a defensive situation.

It is possible that Mr. Parker may have been thinking about this when he tried to make his white dot/black dot analogy. There are many who study kenpo never having experienced a life threatening situation and an attempt to explain this would be difficult without the analogy.

- Ceicei

I haven't studied EPAK all that much (more SK), but have been one of those 'in the middle of the confrontation' a few times (that's a nice way to say it). Your analogy is right on: even when we learn over time (after several trips to the 'center') to somewhat control the adrenaline dump, I've never found that it completely goes away: hyperfocus, screening out surroundings irrelevant to the crisis, etc. are still there. So through the analogy, I can understand the concept although hadn't heard much of it before.

 

[MJS]

White dot focus? Black dot focus? It sounds like just a bunch of propaghanda to make ken/mpo sound far superior to other arts.

Actually, it is a concept in Kenpo. If you want to add something productive to the discussion, then do so, but if you're here to cause flames, it will not be tolerated!

Mike

 

[almost a ghost]

Actually, it is a concept in Kenpo. If you want to add something productive to the discussion, then do so, but if you're here to cause flames, it will not be tolerated!

Mike

I was just agreeing with what Flying Crane said.

My interest lies mostly with the defininion of White Dot Focus, and the accusation that this, as an implied inferior approach, is what most other arts, especially linear arts, are. It implies that kenpo is superior in approach as an art, and that kenpo somehow has a monopoly on total awareness.

I could of said it more positively, I've been listening to a lot of angry punk music lately

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have never been in any training where we tried to visualize a black or white dot, however the idea of totally concentration on one opponent vs concentration on a group is not novel to the training I have had in a few places.
Personal thought on the subject is that if you are so focused on one subject then you endanger yourself. Yes you must concentrate on the subject you are engaged with but one should never, ever, loss peripheral vision of those around you

 

[KenpoGunz]

I could be wrong, but I'm about 90% sure the American Kenpo Encyclopedia you are refering to was written after the death of Ed Parker. I'm not saying that makes it useless or anything but consider the following defenition of white dot focus which comes from Infinite Insights into Kenpo Vol 4. A book which Ed Parker wrote when he was alive.

White Dot Focus- In this concept of focus, one visualizes a white dot on a black background which represents unawareness. The focus is on maximizing power not protection.

That definition says nothing about other styles. It sounds more like it could be applied to individuals of any style. However, I'm sure its been used to generalize people from other styles before.

In Infinite Insights vol 4 the defintion of black dot focus matches what you have above but than refers the reader to white dot focus so that a comparison can be made. I have always thought of these two concepts as a long winded way to say, "take your head out of your *** and rememebr to be balanced with your tactics and aware of environment."

A practicle example of the above is making sure you dont eat a right hand when trying to throw a knock out left hook. :rofl:

 

[pete]

the black dot /white dot metaphor is another device used by parker to make a point and to establish a common vocabulary among his student base.

yes it is common to all arts and to life in general. no it is nothing new.

in fact, i'll contend that all that it is a cross sectional view of the tai chi symbol, where you balance a laser dot focus while also maintaining an environmental awareness.

its not pick one or the other, its a balance of the two.

it probably would have been better to let it stand as the tai chi symbol.

(since i cant figure out how to post a picture, refer to my avatar for a side by side compare)

pete

 

[Flying Crane]

I could be wrong, but I'm about 90% sure the American Kenpo Encyclopedia you are refering to was written after the death of Ed Parker. I'm not saying that makes it useless or anything but consider the following defenition of white dot focus which comes from Infinite Insights into Kenpo Vol 4. A book which Ed Parker wrote when he was alive.

White Dot Focus- In this concept of focus, one visualizes a white dot on a black background which represents unawareness. The focus is on maximizing power not protection.

That definition says nothing about other styles. It sounds more like it could be applied to individuals of any style. However, I'm sure its been used to generalize people from other styles before.

In Infinite Insights vol 4 the defintion of black dot focus matches what you have above but than refers the reader to white dot focus so that a comparison can be made. I have always thought of these two concepts as a long winded way to say, "take your head out of your *** and rememebr to be balanced with your tactics and aware of environment."

A practicle example of the above is making sure you dont eat a right hand when trying to throw a knock out left hook. :rofl:

Thanks for this contribution. The Encyclopedia definition that I posted in the opening of the thread was posted in the other thread on KT, by another member. I simply copied it over from that thread. I did not read the Encyclopedia myself, and did not quote it directly.

The differences in the Encyclopedia listing, and what you have listed from Infinite Insights, is actually pretty important, by taking away the notion of using this concept to compare kenpo to other arts. Thanks much for pointing that out. Good catch!

 

[Flying Crane]

the black dot /white dot metaphor is another device used by parker to make a point and to establish a common vocabulary among his student base.

yes it is common to all arts and to life in general. no it is nothing new.

in fact, i'll contend that all that it is a cross sectional view of the tai chi symbol, where you balance a laser dot focus while also maintaining an environmental awareness.

its not pick one or the other, its a balance of the two.

it probably would have been better to let it stand as the tai chi symbol.

(since i cant figure out how to post a picture, refer to my avatar for a side by side compare)

pete

I think you make some good points here. My disagreement with the original concept, the quote that was from the Encyclopedia, was in using this to compare other arts unfavorably to kenpo. I just felt that was very unrealistic, downright wrong, misguided.

 

[Shotochem]

Hi All,

As a former Shotokan guy, we were a very hard linear style. I see no real difference in the focus on your surroundings in my Kempo classes than my Shotokan classes. We were always taught that you have to be aware of your surroundings at all times. Though there are stylistic and philosophical differences between the 2 arts the focus seems the same IMO.

We never saw it as a black and white kind of thing. You just try to take in everything and be aware as much as you can at all times. A good way of learning this was the 2 on 1 sparring drills and multiple attacker scenarios we have worked on in ....believe it or not..... BOTH arts.

Maybe I was just lucky enough to have good instructors.:ultracool

-Marc-

 

[Touch Of Death]

I am a bagua practitioner and it has circular motion not linear ones so it must, according to the definition given above, be a black dot focused art. A closely associated art is that of xingyi which is extremely linear in its approach (that is why bagua and xingyi are often taught together - the whole yin/yang thing) but I would never describe it as being entirely focused on maximizing power at the expence of protection. The nei jia simply aren't like that.

It was simply a way to modernize training methods.
Sean

 

[JasonASmith]

I'm not so sure that I agree with the statement....
One of the things that is taught to us in just about every facet of endeavor in the dojo is being aware of your surroundings within and apart from conflict...For those of us who give a **** about what we are learning, this is called ZANSHIN in Japanese...I can understand what Mr. Parker is saying if he took a look around himself back then, and saw the proliferation of McDojos in the non-Kenpo world..."Sport" Karate would fit the bill for that definition to a tee.

 

[Empty Hands]

For those of us who give a **** about what we are learning, this is called ZANSHIN in Japanese...

I don't think the Japanese have a lock on the concept of environmental awareness, and I would be willing to bet it was taught by other ancient arts before there was a Japan.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

To be honest, I've found in martial arts the concept of "be aware of your surroundings at all times" to be one which exists mainly as a theoretical one. People talk about it, rather than drilling it.
For example, when citing examples of their "awareness" most people tend to use cold cases, by which I mean situations prior to any conflict occurring. In other words they are observing the world around them and notice a potential threat. This of course an INCREDIBLY important attribute, but nonetheless does not qualify as being aware at all times, its just being aware during normal times.

As of yet I've heard very few martial artists speak of their awareness during hot cases, where they are mid-conflict.
This is most likely because drills for hot cases are rarely performed in most martial arts. In order to actually develop awareness for a hot case, one would have to essentially insert random variables into your sparring. And they would have to be random, because otherwise you wouldn't develop an awareness of your surroundings, you'd develop an awareness of one specific surrounding.
So that means stuff like training in your civies, different environmental conditions, obstacles and cramped spaces, multiple opponents, some armed some not, and any other thing likely to show up outside of dojo sparring, all randomly thrown out a student so they have no choice but to learn awareness.

And that simply isn't happening in most martial arts training. So with regards to the Black-dot/White-dot concept, I personally find it way too theoretical.
The cold case awareness is developed from simply learning to keep your damn eyes open, a tendency which can be picked up independent of any martial arts.
And the hot case awarenss is developed from drills and practice which tend to be absent from most MA, Kenpo included.
No disrepect intended to any Kenpo-ka with all that, just I find it it to be too much of an abstract concept.