How effective is the striking art?

Kung Fu Wang

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If 2 persons spar for 10 rounds, how many rounds can one


- knock the other down?
- take the other down?


Will you say 5-5? I think the chance that one can take the other down is much higher than one can knock the other down. I used to think that a good striker and a good grappler are on 50-50 equal base. My opinion has changed lately.


How effective is the striking art? Here is a simple test.


- Hold both of your hands into a big fist by locking with your fingers.
- Hide your head behind that "wedged arms".
- Extend your arms toward at your opponent's face.
- Run toward your opponent like a mad man and try to use your big fist to hit on his face.
- Let your opponent to try to hit your head.
- You use your big fist along with your "wedged arms" to deflect your opponent's head shots.
- When your hands are close to your opponent's elbow, shoulder, neck, use arm wrap, over hook, under hook, head lock, ... and prevent your opponent from punching you again.


In the following picture, the sharp point is your big fist. 2 sides from that sharp point to the base are your arms. You hide your head in the yellow area.


wedge.jpg



If


1. your opponent's punch can hit your head, he wins that round.
2. you can use your big fist to hit on your opponent's face, or get him into an arm wrap, under hook, over hook, head lock, ... before he can hit you, you win that round.


Do you mind to try this with your opponent for 10 rounds and see what kind record that you and your opponent may come up with? Will it be


- 5 for 1, 5 for 2, or
- 3 for 1, 7 for 2, or
- 7 for 1, 3 for 2, or
- ...?
 

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I will agree that it's easier to take someone down than to knock them down.

I'll also point out that they're less likely to continue fighting after you knock them down than after you take them down.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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I'll also point out that they're less likely to continue fighting after you knock them down than after you take them down.
That's true too.

When you

- throw a matchbox in the air and strike it, that matchbox will fly away.
- put a matchbox on the ground, even a kid can step on it and smash it.

It may be a good idea to apply your punching skill when you are sitting on top of your opponent when he is on the ground. Your opponent is not going anywhere. The striking value is still there. You may just delay it a little bit.
 

drop bear

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I do a drill called shootboxing which is 16 ounce gloves boxing and takedowns. It is something boxers and grapplers can do that kind of evens out the advantage.

The issue that you have is a grappler only has to succeed once and it is pretty much over once you are on your back you are not striking your way out.



But I have fought good boxer a with evasive footwork who have been a real issue to catch. So if they are really good strikers are still a threat.

My view with the mixed martial arts is to be a master of all trades. There is no good reason to neglect an area of your training. And the only way to do that is to find experts in their field and compete on their level.
 

drop bear

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That's true too.

When you

- throw a matchbox in the air and strike it, that matchbox will fly away.
- put a matchbox on the ground, even a kid can step on it and smash it.

It may be a good idea to apply your punching skill when you are sitting on top of your opponent when he is on the ground. Your opponent is not going anywhere. The striking value is still there. You may just delay it a little bit.


Striking sets up takedowns. On a basic level with the classic double leg. The way to defend that is to sprawl and lever their chin up. But this requires you to have your hands down.

You can't do this if you are being punched in the face.

Expanding on that.

Good striking controls your environment really well.

It sets up your takedowns

It forces the other guy to be more desperate with his takedowns

And can knock the guy out in its own right.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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I'm 100% in favor of "cross training". When a wrestler without much striking skill and want to compete in MMA, he will need some strategy. It won't be to his advantage to box against a boxer and that's for sure.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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In the following clip, you can see that 80% of the fight is in "clinch". The MT guy's guard is farther away from his own head.

 
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K-man

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So, is this black and white? I mean is this boxer vs grappler or can the striker use knees and elbows?
:asian:
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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So, is this black and white? I mean is this boxer vs grappler or can the striker use knees and elbows?
:asian:

The knee and elbow are both in clinch range. The wrestler's clinching skill can deal with that much better than the punching range head shot. To a good wrestler, a knee strike is almost like to offer a free "single leg". The "elbow" is a much different story. Most Sanda and Sanshou game won't allow "elbow".
 

TKDTony2179

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If 2 persons spar for 10 rounds, how many rounds can one


- knock the other down?
- take the other down?


Will you say 5-5? I think the chance that one can take the other down is much higher than one can knock the other down. I used to think that a good striker and a good grappler are on 50-50 equal base. My opinion has changed lately.


How effective is the striking art? Here is a simple test.


- Hold both of your hands into a big fist by locking with your fingers.
- Hide your head behind that "wedged arms".
- Extend your arms toward at your opponent's face.
- Run toward your opponent like a mad man and try to use your big fist to hit on his face.
- Let your opponent to try to hit your head.
- You use your big fist along with your "wedged arms" to deflect your opponent's head shots.
- When your hands are close to your opponent's elbow, shoulder, neck, use arm wrap, over hook, under hook, head lock, ... and prevent your opponent from punching you again.


In the following picture, the sharp point is your big fist. 2 sides from that sharp point to the base are your arms. You hide your head in the yellow area.


wedge.jpg



If


1. your opponent's punch can hit your head, he wins that round.
2. you can use your big fist to hit on your opponent's face, or get him into an arm wrap, under hook, over hook, head lock, ... before he can hit you, you win that round.


Do you mind to try this with your opponent for 10 rounds and see what kind record that you and your opponent may come up with? Will it be


- 5 for 1, 5 for 2, or
- 3 for 1, 7 for 2, or
- 7 for 1, 3 for 2, or
- ...?

Hmmm....are we using just hands as primary striking? No kicks right? Well the old saying is if I can punch you then you can punch me. It is true until someone has a hugh reach advantage. Now another question I have is can I actually grab the stretched out arms to pull or push the person at will or am I just limited to striking. To me your best advantage is to parry and move and just strike in a new angle.

Now simply let me say that it may be easer take someone down than to knock them out.
 

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And by the way a good wrestler can shoot in from outside striking range. It is risky but worth it if the other by does not have good defence.
 

TKDTony2179

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I do a drill called shootboxing which is 16 ounce gloves boxing and takedowns. It is something boxers and grapplers can do that kind of evens out the advantage.

The issue that you have is a grappler only has to succeed once and it is pretty much over once you are on your back you are not striking your way out.



But I have fought good boxer a with evasive footwork who have been a real issue to catch. So if they are really good strikers are still a threat.

My view with the mixed martial arts is to be a master of all trades. There is no good reason to neglect an area of your training. And the only way to do that is to find experts in their field and compete on their level.

I would say not a master of all trades but a jake of all trades. They are using the best skills in hand strikes, kicks, stand up clinch and ground fighting. I have yet to see someone of MMA sport to control someone balance and power. Nuthing more than an inside leg kick is all I see to innterrupte someone balance.
 

drop bear

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I would say not a master of all trades but a jake of all trades. They are using the best skills in hand strikes, kicks, stand up clinch and ground fighting. I have yet to see someone of MMA sport to control someone balance and power. Nuthing more than an inside leg kick is all I see to innterrupte someone balance.

Jack of all trades is a really limiting concept. Which is why I put it like that. To be successful in mma you need to be able to at least stand with the guys who are the experts in their individual disciplines and humble enough to recognise that you don't get to use the multi discipline style as an excuse.

My view is that if you are going to pull from other styles you need to take those styles seriously.

I am not sure what you mean by control someone's balance and power
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Hmmm....are we using just hands as primary striking? No kicks right? Well the old saying is if I can punch you then you can punch me. It is true until someone has a hugh reach advantage. Now another question I have is can I actually grab the stretched out arms to pull or push the person at will or am I just limited to striking. To me your best advantage is to parry and move and just strike in a new angle.
A wrestler is not concern too much about kicking. It's like to offer a free "single leg" to him.

If you try to grab the stretched out arms, you are playing the grappling game and you are not playing the striking game. That's exactly what your wrestling opponent wants.

If you move and try to strike from a new angle, all your opponent needs is to re-adjust his body position and still aiming his big fist toward your face. It takes very little effort for your stiff arms opponent to do so.
 

K-man

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A wrestler is not concern too much about kicking. It's like to offer a free "single leg" to him.

If you try to grab the stretched out arms, you are playing the grappling game and you are not playing the striking game. That's exactly what your wrestling opponent wants.

If you move and try to strike from a new angle, all your opponent needs is to re-adjust his body position and still aiming his big fist toward your face. It takes very little effort for your stiff arms opponent to do so.
I think that you are making an assumption that a striker does not have grappling skills, hence my question regarding grappler vs boxer. In all my training we do not spar from boxing range. All our interaction is at grappling distance but heavily involves knees and elbows. Good luck to you if you reckon you can catch the leg. All our kicks are low and the knee isn't left where it can be held. It is less likely than catching a punch. I would suggest that the skills of such a fighter, technically a striker, at that range would more than match a wrestler. If it goes to the ground the advantage changes.
:asian:
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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I think that you are making an assumption that a striker does not have grappling skills,

My assumption is the other way around instead. This thread discussion is "the wrestler doesn't have striking skill". It's pretty much the "anti-striking" strategy from a wrestler point of view.

A wrestler in his 30 who has regular job, wife and kids, mortgage payment, want to train in MMA format, don't mind to take body shots, or full force kicks on the body, but don't want to receive "full force head shots".
 
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mook jong man

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A wrestler is not concern too much about kicking. It's like to offer a free "single leg" to him.

If you try to grab the stretched out arms, you are playing the grappling game and you are not playing the striking game. That's exactly what your wrestling opponent wants.

If you move and try to strike from a new angle, all your opponent needs is to re-adjust his body position and still aiming his big fist toward your face. It takes very little effort for your stiff arms opponent to do so.

What if the wrestler is getting a punch in the face and low heel kick to the shin at the same time.
In Wing Chun kicking range and punching range can be exactly the same thing , and often happen simultaneously.
 
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