How does a martial artist fight a boxer without kicking?

[Bystander]

My question is... how do you fight somebody with a boxing mentality using what you know about martial arts... without kicking or grappling. Would such a fight merely become a fight between two boxers? If you take away the kicks and grabs of fully rounded martial artist, is what you have left a boxer?

What techniques and concepts would you still be able to use against the boxer?

 

[fist of fury]

Well I wouldn't want to take the kicking advantage away. Would locking and trapping still applicable? if so I would close the distance quiclkly and attempt to tie up his arms to prevent getting caught with any good hooks while simultaneously trapping his legs.

 

[Bystander]

I guess trapping would be good. Basically, you would theoretically be a martial artist entering a boxing tournament so boxing rules would apply. I ask this because I was sparring a boxer and found it difficult to perform and trapping techniques simply because 1)my gloves were too big and 2)his hands were too fast.

 

[Ty K. Doe]

From what I understand about boxing, a boxer usually ducks and covers, and sticks and jabs. Basically boxers fight toe-to-toe. As a martial artist, I counter to the side. So as a boxer moves in for a jab, I think out of instinct, I would counter to the side by block is jab and counter with a punch. The usual ridge hand to the gut for me would become an uppercut. A boxer would probably do the same.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Not all boxers fight the same just like martial artists. Some have long reach and want to keep out away from them. Others like the in fight, right down your throat. And others like to be counter punchers waiting for you to throw a punch to counter. Your/ opponents physical characteristic should be part on how you fight. I am 5-11 with short arms. I like to fight in close and or counter punch. Some one that is 6-4 with long arms may not or can't fight in close. I consider grappling the same as the clinch. Most people when you say "grappling" they think you mean to go to the ground. Grappling could be done anywhere standing up or from the ground.

Bob Thomas:boxing: :drinkbeer

 

[Carbon]

I don't think you can compare the two, a martial artist and a boxer.

They both fight completely different, a MA would have to work extremly hard to beable to effectively control the boxers power and speed.

I mean a boxer has pinpoint accuracy and works on every aspect of punching, on the other hand a martial artist has to spread his time out and work on grappling, kicking, punching.

So I would think that a boxer would have an extreme advantage over a MA and the MA probably woudln't know how to handle an extremly good boxer.

 

[Ty K. Doe]

So I would think that a boxer would have an extreme advantage over a MA and the MA probably woudln't know how to handle an extremly good boxer.

The advantage goes to the style of fighting and who's used to what. Of course if a boxer were fighting with martial arts rules, the opposite would be true.

 

[GouRonin]

First of all most Boxers will take out most karateka hands down. It's not an issue. Boxers for the most part train way harder and for more contact than most karateka. Not to say there are not good karateka but Boxers over all are sharpening only a few tools to make them WORK as compared to a multitude.

Boxers not only have good handspeed and coordination but the footwork will also outshine most karateka. Why? They use it! They use it fighting and they HAVE to make it work. Not in the air either. At the worst they make it work in contact on a bag. At best they hone the hand/footwork on other people. So while karateka mostly talk or imagine what they want to do, boxers are doing it.

The biggest mistake you can make is assume they fight toe-to-toe only. Their footwork will let them run rings around you and conditioning will kill you. I for example like to wait and wait and wait until the person I am sparring just can't go on and then I eat them alive. A lot of boxers will do this.

Trapping and stand up grappling. Believe it or not, boxers do this. The clinch proves it. Elbows, headbutts, forarm smashes, toe stomps, knees. Boxers are some of the dirtiest fighters out there.

You don't want to box a boxer if you're not a boxer. Why give up the kicks? I don't know why karateka seem to think that they have this huge advantage over boxers. They have a bigger toolbox that is for sure but while the karateka is practicing all these moves the boxer is like a guy shapening a knife. Day after day, one or two motions. Putting them together. When they get a chance to use it, they know how and when to do so.

Remember when kickboxing got popular? A lot of boxers went there because after they did the manditory 8 kicks they ate the guys alive with punches until the kick boxers realized that kicks weren't the end all be all.

Over all I would put my money on a boxer. After all, how many McDojo boxing schools do you see? Almost none. Why? No belts except the one for the champ and you can't step into the ring and fake it.

Having said that, a lot of boxers need to step out and expand their tool box. I know I have and man is it a lot more fun.

 

[Baoquan]

Right on, Gou. You posted my reply for me.

The biggest advantage any boxer has is, as you said, conditioning and training to hit hard - heavy contact trianing. MT guys train this way too, but dont have the hand skills of boxers. The only guys i'd put up with boxers in hand skills are *heavy* wing chun style hand trappers/pushers, especially when they attack the elbows - but their head and body evasion isn't like a boxers.

On the whole, my advice is, DON'T try to box a boxer - not even boxers to that. Why fight to somebody's strength??

My main training partner is a 2Dan karateka, and he HATES getting into punching range with me....stays long, or enters real quick to grapple.

....and to anyone that thinks boxers fight straight on, toe-to-toe....watch a Prince Naseem fight!! Boxers attack on a lot of angles, especially moving forward and accross to throw body shots, or put a shoulder in to weight the opponents body.

that being said - if you just mean a martial artist not kicking and grappling, but not necessarily fighting to boxing rules - i'd try to move around a boxer, attack his kidneys, and the back of his head and neck, as well as low blows and attacking his arms directly (elbow/upper arm grabs and muscle tears). Throw a series of head hits, wait for him to duck and cover, and bring elbows down on the top of his head.

cheers

Baoquan.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by GouRonin

First of all most Boxers will take out most karateka hands down. It's not an issue. Boxers for the most part train way harder and for more contact than most karateka. Not to say there are not good karateka but Boxers over all are sharpening only a few tools to make them WORK as compared to a multitude.

The issue of a small system--sharpening only a few tools--is important, but I think with boxers the biggest things are conditioning and the experience in taking and giving a punch. Add to that the sparring experience, the timing it develops, and the simple fact that they typically put in much more time per day on their art and you've got a nasty situation. If a boxer trained like many martial artists--two days per week, one hour each time--they wouldn't be as frightening, I think.

Trapping and stand up grappling. Believe it or not, boxers do this. The clinch proves it. Elbows, headbutts, forarm smashes, toe stomps, knees. Boxers are some of the dirtiest fighters out there.

Agreed. They certainly do know how to clinch and how to off-balance you with a quick move of the knee. It isn't as simple as it seems to grapple a boxer.

Remember when kickboxing got popular? A lot of boxers went there because after they did the manditory 8 kicks they ate the guys alive with punches until the kick boxers realized that kicks weren't the end all be all.

This is an excellent point and it deserves repeating. The mandatory minimum number of kicks is there because people won't kick that often if not forced to do so, because it isn't as good a strategy against a trained and well-conditioned fighter when you can only go above the waist. Why don't TKD practitioners rule kickboxing? The hands have it, by and large, when you can't kick the legs.

Over all I would put my money on a boxer.

I wish I could disagree--but I can't. The sparring experience and all it develops, the conditioning, and the simple fact that they invest so many more hours in training make them tough. There are too few martial asrtists training similar hours and engaging in similar conditioning to make it a fair fight.

That having been said, the problem posed here is very limited--a restricted martial artist vs. a boxer. There are many reasons why the martial arts may still be a good self-defense bet, including multiple opponents (how many boxers break their fist with the first ungloved punch they throw at a person?), weapons, and accessibility to those unwilling or unnable to train according to a boxer's regimen.

 

[Baoquan]

the simple fact that they typically put in much more time per day on their art and you've got a nasty situation. If a boxer trained like many martial artists--two days per week, one hour each time--they wouldn't be as frightening, I think.

i dont necessarily agree - more time in anyones art will make them a better artist - professional kickboxers train just as hard and as many hours as professional boxers. A guy who trains kung fu full time will also be a pretty frightening prospect, and there are also many two day a week amatuer boxers who are still good fighters....

I think its more a fact that boxing is a very focused regimen, and fighting is regulated by a strict set of rules, so boxers can limit training time to things they KNOW they can and will use, but many martial artists train to "what-ifs". That, combined with more ring time make boxers the effective fighters they are.

That being said, boxing - despite being very effective - is also one of the most esoteric arts...it is effective within a very strict set of rules. If you wanna make a boxer pay, attack his legs. I have the bruises to attest that this works.....

 

[tshadowchaser]

I'm not going to disagree with what has been said however I will poin out it was called Chineese Boxing and china hand .
I agree the boxer gets hit all the time so he is used to it most martial artests these days are not used to heavy contact. Most martial artests don't even know enough to use their heead as a weapon or to use elbows in an effective manor .
Shadow

 

[Carbon]

How do you avoid from breaking your hands on other people's faces?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Carbon

How do you avoid from breaking your hands on other people's faces?

It's not so much the faces as the sides and tops of the head that do it.

 

[GouRonin]

Boxers regularily used to use a 3/4 punch to tear the flesh off with the boxing glove. (Hence the use of vasoline) but modified it heavily into the late 19th/20th century to a 1/4 punch. (Sounds kinda like a systema issue I was speaking of earlier no? The "skin" depth?) In any case it's a good idea to try and punch through your target but you gain some measure of depth control. So you avoid breaking your hand that way.

You can also pick your targets. Don't punch to the top of the forhead or the side of the head for example. You'll bust your hand for sure due to structural issues.

Also, you learn where to hit and where not to. There is a reason boxers are taking to wearing double sided mouth guards or even why they discovered that wearing a rag in your mouth in the early years of boxing stops knockouts.

It's called a sweet science for a reason.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by GouRonin

but modified it heavily into the late 19th/20th century to a 1/4 punch.

Could you expand on this? I've noticed it in books now that I'm looking closely but i don't undersatnd the reasoning behind it.

 

[GouRonin]

The 3/4 punch was really effective as it allowed more contact time with the glove/knuckles and the skin. The resulting twist literally tore the skin in place. The problem is that this takes full extenstion of the strike and time to do so.

As time went by and to faciliate speed the twist was shortened to allow for more power to be mixed with speed and shorter range shots. Also it allowed for better defense to incoming blows. You have a better defense if your hands are not held knuckles out and fingers towards you. Easier to parry/ward off blows. However this doesn't allow for full extention and the tear. So the 1/4 twist was born. A mixture of keeping the old and modifying with the new.

Dennis Conatser does a wonderful bit about rotation being one of the master key movments in kenpo with the fist that ties right in with how much Ed Parker knew about the sweet science of boxing and how much there is to it.

 

[Damian Mavis]

I agree with Gou and Carbon mostly but I like to think theres more than just a few martial artists that train a few hours a day seriously and train full contact. A Ma that trains 2 hours a week shouldnt even be thinking in terms of "what if I fought a boxer?" It's delusional. Like everything...if you want to be good at it you gotta really work at it. But if a martial artist that trains several hours a day and trains to get hit fights in no rules with a boxer, the boxer is at a disadvantage. If a MA that trains as aggressivley as a boxer is going to fight a boxer by the boxers rules the MA is gonna get beat, the boxer is a master of his rules.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Carbon]

I've never been to a boxing gym, but usually most boxers are trying to make it competitively.

So they train like, atleast acouple hours if not more a day.

I am not sure how much a gym would cost to go to everyday and recieve instruction from a trainer there, but in some of the MA schools I've looked at you have to put in more money to beable to go everyday.

Also the training is completely different, there aren't alot of flashy punch a boxer learns how to do, its really just basics and how well you can apply it.

So after they learn how to stand, how to breathe and punch, a boxer can work on anything he wants, hand speed, power, stamina, leg workouts...

I mean a boxer is very conditioned.

So I think if a MA would take only a couple body shots from a boxer(knuckles) he would be winded quite easily.

 

[Dan Anderson]

I came onto this thread late. Get as close as safely possible, leave an opening to your head, as the boxer goes for the target go for a double leg takedown. OR you fake a strike upstairs and go for a double leg takedown. OR better yet, you pick up some sort of percussion instrument (stick, hammer or the like) and use that.

I wouldn't go trapping on a boxer as they have tto much experience with hands coming at them. Put them in the no-experience zone...or get the hell away.
Dan Anderson