Why being able to dodge one fast strike like jab don't mean you can dodge others like beer bottle?

Bullshidog

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I am wondering about one thing.

During one incident a professional boxer was murdered during a fight that ensued with a friend of his during an argument while they were drinking. Now granted this friend was revealed to be a member of a gang group I think it was MS-13, both guys were drunk, and the boxer was able to bruise the MS13 friend a bit before he died of bleeding from the stabs. However the MS13 guy had nor formal training. The documentary does not reveal how physically conditioned the MS13 guy was. In addition since the boxer was able to bruise the MS13 guy that proves he was no more faster than the boxer, if not was slower according to eye witness accounts. The boxer was a local hero and was ranked high for his speed for a low level contender according to his career records. So shouldn't he have been able to at least dodge some of the MS13 guy's stabs or at least block them with his arms? The photos in the docs showed wounds in his stomach. Moreso considering he was able to hit the guy back!

In a amateur MMA fight I witnessed, a guy was able to dodge an opponents kicks very easily and even hooks. But he had a hard time trying to dodge jabs and he fell than after a few traditional boxing blows and was submitted.

To use an anecdote I have a friend at my uni who was VERY FAST in bobbing and weaving. I could not land a single blow when we spared. But one day after an idiotic argument a fight broke out between him and some drunk mumbo in a bar. The drunk swung his beer bottle at a much slower speed that I can easily see and dodge it myself. Yet my friend who I could not land a blow was hit by it very EASILY to my shock. The bar keeper stopped the brawl but my friend himself was humiliated that some random guy who doesn't evne look physically fit was able to land a blow on him. That his reflexes was unable to spot the bottle in time before he could react.

I am curious. As you can see in the incidents I posted, some oft he people have HIGH REFLEXES compared to the average Joe and could dodge quick attacks that they seen daily in their professions or lifestyles. Yet when MUCH MUCH SLOWER BLOWS that they hadn't had much experience fighting came, they were HIT despite their reflexes and in one case the boxer guy died.

Why is this? Does having the reflexes to say bob and weave punches at professional level does not mean you can dodge baseball swings from an angry psychopath who doesn't even know how to swing a baseball bat properly let alone last a 20 seconds in a spar with amateur boxers? I mean I know tales about hardened street fighters who can literally stab multiple targets and at vital points within seconds and than run away in an instant but lack the reflexes to dodge a basic hook from a 15 year old boxing fan in a boxing gym and of special forces who are so quick in reflexes they can disarm a guy just before he presses the trigger but cannot catch a leg in time from a slow kickboxer's roundhouse (yes slow even in amatuer standards) despite having the reflexes to disarmed a bloodthirsty terrorist!

Is there a difference in skill from dodging kicks to dodging plumbing pipes and so on?

I ask this because boxers are often praised for their punching speed and punches always receive universally as being far faster than most kicks from martial artists. SInce boxers have the reflexes to dodge punches like second nature, shouldn't kicks which tend to be much slower be easy to dodge (especially those that ltakea bit to execute like roundhouse)?

I seen more than enough cases of former military personel (a couple who are combatives instructor and even a few who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan) getting pawned rather quickly when they start fight careers because they were too slow in evading basic punches or kicks or to react to basic BJJ. Some of these guys who according to scientific testing have superhuman reflexes and perception such as spotting things in pitch black or being able to reach to surprise ambushes in time.

Sports may be a different dog from military H2H but with such peak human reflexes and perception shouldn't they have at least lasted several rounds? The ex-military I saw were pawned within seconds of entering the ring! They should have been able to judging by how their reflexes were ranked in military testing, been able to at least dodge or block against the punches, kicks, and takedowns by the other MMA fighters for a round or two.
 

jezr74

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Welcome to the forums Bullshidog, introduce yourself in the meet and greet section of the forum when you get time, would be good to get your background.

With alcohol involved, all bets are off in my opinion. Assuming you don't train in a drunk state, this can greatly hinder your judgement for your motor skills, so I don't find it surprising at all that a jab, punch or bottle can get pass a trained persons guard.

There are so many factors involved in what you have described, what may work in the ring\sport after warming up and getting in the mind set may not always come to the forefront in a RL situation.

You have too many anecdotal assessment of the situations you have listed, without more information, I'm not sure what you could learn from it.

Curious what the scientific evidence is for the superhuman reflexes and perception. Do you have a link to the documentary your referencing?
 

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Fighting is a highly specific act. If a boxer never trains to avoid weapons they may catch him off guard. You can't train one skill and automatically have the ability to apply it to every situation. The same goes for sports training one athlete can't perform in every sport at the same level do to the specificity of his training. Conversely, the same is true the other way around. In FMA many people think their weapons skills magically carry over to empty hand. They will serve you better than no training but you won't beat a boxer.

If you want to dodge bottles or blades go to a weapons specialist. If you want to dodge punches go to a punching specialist. If you want situational training go train rbsd. If you want all of that you'd better get to training. I think some arts lay a better foundation than others but no one has it all. Hence your examples of RBSD not holding its own against fighters. And of course fighters not always winning in the street.

Of course street altercations can go south quickly and I don't know how much evidence can be presented to show the success rate of an RBSD guy in a street altercation. For all we know the same could happen to an RBSD expert.
 
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Bullshidog

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Fighting is a highly specific act. If a boxer never trains to avoid weapons they may catch him off guard. You can't train one skill and automatically have the ability to apply it to every situation. The same goes for sports training one athlete can't perform in every sport at the same level do to the specificity of his training. Conversely, the same is true the other way around. In FMA many people think their weapons skills magically carry over to empty hand. They will serve you better than no training but you won't beat a boxer.

If you want to dodge bottles or blades go to a weapons specialist. If you want to dodge punches go to a punching specialist. If you want situational training go train rbsd. If you want all of that you'd better get to training. I think some arts lay a better foundation than others but no one has it all. Hence your examples of RBSD not holding its own against fighters. And of course fighters not always winning in the street.

Of course street altercations can go south quickly and I don't know how much evidence can be presented to show the success rate of an RBSD guy in a street altercation. For all we know the same could happen to an RBSD expert.

More question to this. The reason I ask is that popular media often portrays someone who has above average human reflexes being able to dodge all sorts of things from a soccer ball heading towards your direction to a knife attack from a street thug to some sparring in the gym.

Its gotten to the point many people think if they take the martial arts and develop their reflexes in sparring that they could easily carry it over to anything from soccer to boxing to trying to avoid some trash being thrown from the fourth floor apartment that you just happen to be standing under.

I mean just watch how in many movies a pro boxer suddenly can dodge a stone thrown at him in a surprise ambush or how a mater martial artist is able to dodge hungry dogs jumping at them.

So this struck up to me in particular after watching my friend get hit with a beer bottle and watching the documentary about the MS-13 gang (I think it was the TV show Gangland by HIstory Channel) and seeing the boxer get his stomach pierced rather easily. What actually shocks me the most was the boxer had the speed and reflexes to counter attack the MS-13 guy and hit him a couple of times enough to bruise his face so I'm wondering why he couldn't bob and weave and blcok his way from the MS-13 guys knife or better hit finish the MS-13 guy and KO him before injuries (especially since his reflexes were good enough to realize the MS-13 guy just pulled a knife and to counter-attack immediately after the knife being began to be swing).
 

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If you are sitting in the pocket. Or too close. You are not going to stop that first shot generally.

A lot of people are pretty easy targets from that confrontation stage. Especially if they get sucker punched.
 
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Bullshidog

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Also about dodging different blows....

I sort of can understand whya boxer despite being renown as the best and quickest fistfighter would have difficulty contending with styles that use kicks frequently.

But i have to ask why moves with slightly differently variations would give artists a difficult time dodging despite being almost entirelyt he same in mechanics minus tweaks in some stances or position of hands or feet (or other variation).

To use the boxer example, theoretically a boxer who is 100% prepared and going to fight via MMA style in the cage should be able to block or dodge (or at least put up basica boxing style) defenses against a palm fist strike. I mean aside from the hand being an open palm, the basic angle nd mechanics of the strikes appears the same.

But in the Discovery Channel documentary Fight Science I recall they had some Shaolin guy and boxer do some sparring and the boxer was completely caught off-guard against the palm fist. Which perplexed me because he was able to block and dodge some of the SHaloin's regular punches early in the sparring session. It seemed almost like the boxer never experienced training how to defend a basic punch (because the palm attack basically is punching except with open firts or at least thats how it appears to me).

Another example is kneeing. Most martial arts have a knee variation so I'm surprised when sparring against MT many styles have difficulty confronting the knees. We're not even talking about the MT clinch, just regular kneeing and it just surprises me how styles that teaches knees and how to defend against it and so have difficulty against defending. True MT's knee techniques have a slight variation in bodily mechanics but oerall the basic technique is still the same so I don't understand how just slight differences can catch masters only specializing in one style (with knee techniques) get caught off-guard. from a regular knee. AGAIN we aren't even involving the clinch here.

One last comparison is baseball bat vs eskrima or similar baton styles. The baseball bat althrough used twohanded basically is just a simple swing as opposed to Eskrima and other style's complex attacks. Shouldn't defending against a baseball swing (especially seeing how everyone who's got acessed to American TV already seen how its typically executed) be no probs for practitioners of styles that have more deceptive and quicker complex technique?
 

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But in the Discovery Channel documentary Fight Science I recall they had some Shaolin guy and boxer do some sparring and the boxer was completely caught off-guard against the palm fist. Which perplexed me because he was able to block and dodge some of the SHaloin's regular punches early in the sparring session. It seemed almost like the boxer never experienced training how to defend a basic punch (because the palm attack basically is punching except with open firts or at least thats how it appears to me).

Fight science is generally pretty poor science.
 

drop bear

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Another example is kneeing. Most martial arts have a knee variation so I'm surprised when sparring against MT many styles have difficulty confronting the knees. We're not even talking about the MT clinch, just regular kneeing and it just surprises me how styles that teaches knees and how to defend against it and so have difficulty against defending. True MT's knee techniques have a slight variation in bodily mechanics but oerall the basic technique is still the same so I don't understand how just slight differences can catch masters only specializing in one style (with knee techniques) get caught off-guard. from a regular knee. AGAIN we aren't even involving the

That is because your average muay thai guy can knee better than your average guy can defend it.

this is pretty common. I was sparring a boxer the other day and got pummeled. It iis not because i do not have defences for punches. He was just a lot better than me.
 

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One last comparison is baseball bat vs eskrima or similar baton styles. The baseball bat althrough used twohanded basically is just a simple swing as opposed to Eskrima and other style's complex attacks. Shouldn't defending against a baseball swing (especially seeing how everyone who's got acessed to American TV already seen how its typically executed) be no probs for practitioners of styles that have more deceptive and quicker complex technique?

Youtube dog brothers. The stick fighting there is a bit different to the drills.
 

drop bear

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To use the boxer example, theoretically a boxer who is 100% prepared and going to fight via MMA style in the cage should be able to block or dodge (or at least put up basica boxing style) defenses against a palm fist strike. I mean aside from the hand being an open palm, the basic angle nd mechanics of the strikes appears the same.

look up slap fight boxer on youtube.
 

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Weapons can be a real game changer. An unskilled stabber vs a skilled boxer. Even if the boxer hits him ten times to his one stab. One well placed stab is still a lethal situation.
 

Mephisto

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Also about dodging different blows....

I sort of can understand whya boxer despite being renown as the best and quickest fistfighter would have difficulty contending with styles that use kicks frequently.

But i have to ask why moves with slightly differently variations would give artists a difficult time dodging despite being almost entirelyt he same in mechanics minus tweaks in some stances or position of hands or feet (or other variation).

To use the boxer example, theoretically a boxer who is 100% prepared and going to fight via MMA style in the cage should be able to block or dodge (or at least put up basica boxing style) defenses against a palm fist strike. I mean aside from the hand being an open palm, the basic angle nd mechanics of the strikes appears the same.

But in the Discovery Channel documentary Fight Science I recall they had some Shaolin guy and boxer do some sparring and the boxer was completely caught off-guard against the palm fist. Which perplexed me because he was able to block and dodge some of the SHaloin's regular punches early in the sparring session. It seemed almost like the boxer never experienced training how to defend a basic punch (because the palm attack basically is punching except with open firts or at least thats how it appears to me).

Another example is kneeing. Most martial arts have a knee variation so I'm surprised when sparring against MT many styles have difficulty confronting the knees. We're not even talking about the MT clinch, just regular kneeing and it just surprises me how styles that teaches knees and how to defend against it and so have difficulty against defending. True MT's knee techniques have a slight variation in bodily mechanics but oerall the basic technique is still the same so I don't understand how just slight differences can catch masters only specializing in one style (with knee techniques) get caught off-guard. from a regular knee. AGAIN we aren't even involving the clinch here.

One last comparison is baseball bat vs eskrima or similar baton styles. The baseball bat althrough used twohanded basically is just a simple swing as opposed to Eskrima and other style's complex attacks. Shouldn't defending against a baseball swing (especially seeing how everyone who's got acessed to American TV already seen how its typically executed) be no probs for practitioners of styles that have more deceptive and quicker complex technique?
Gangland and fight science are entertainment programs. I assure you the monk and boxer were only doing demonstration "sparring" not a real match. You have maybe 3 examples here one is an anecdote from your friend and the other two are tv shows, and the "boxer" in gangland is questionable too. There are plenty of videos of "boxers" using it in the street successfully, and I'm not just taking punching. There are several videos of guys using what appear to be distinctive boxing techniques against guys in the street. What we have less of of any is video of other arts working in the street.
 

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During one incident a professional boxer was murdered during a fight that ensued with a friend of his during an argument while they were drinking. Now granted this friend was revealed to be a member of a gang group I think it was MS-13, both guys were drunk, and the boxer was able to bruise the MS13 friend a bit before he died of bleeding from the stabs. However the MS13 guy had nor formal training. The documentary does not reveal how physically conditioned the MS13 guy was. In addition since the boxer was able to bruise the MS13 guy that proves he was no more faster than the boxer, if not was slower according to eye witness accounts. The boxer was a local hero and was ranked high for his speed for a low level contender according to his career records. So shouldn't he have been able to at least dodge some of the MS13 guy's stabs or at least block them with his arms?

1) Alcohol is a game changer.
2) Knives are a game changer. When you are defending against punches, you only have to react to strikes that have the correct body dynamics and targeting to inflict damage. You also have the option to accept an inferior punch for the chance to inflict a more damaging strike of your own. With knives, every touch is potentially deadly. It's much harder to keep someone from touching you, especially if they can afford to take a punch from you in exchange for inflicting a lethal wound.

To use an anecdote I have a friend at my uni who was VERY FAST in bobbing and weaving. I could not land a single blow when we spared. But one day after an idiotic argument a fight broke out between him and some drunk mumbo in a bar. The drunk swung his beer bottle at a much slower speed that I can easily see and dodge it myself. Yet my friend who I could not land a blow was hit by it very EASILY to my shock. The bar keeper stopped the brawl but my friend himself was humiliated that some random guy who doesn't evne look physically fit was able to land a blow on him. That his reflexes was unable to spot the bottle in time before he could react.

1) Alcohol again.
2) Had they already squared off and started fighting when the drunk swung the bottle? If your friend was still engaged in the verbal confrontation, he may not have been primed to respond to physical action.
3) Was your friend emotionally engaged in the argument? Bobbing, weaving, and slipping require a bit of a cold mindset. If your friend was caught up in a drunk argument, he probably wasn't in the right mental place for technically evading and countering.

Does having the reflexes to say bob and weave punches at professional level does not mean you can dodge baseball swings from an angry psychopath who doesn't even know how to swing a baseball bat properly let alone last a 20 seconds in a spar with amateur boxers?

Baseball bats, like knives, are game changers. The path of serious threat for a bat is much wider than the path of threat for a punch. I can evade a punch by shifting my head a few inches. To evade a bat, I might have to shift my whole body by several feet.

I seen more than enough cases of former military personel (a couple who are combatives instructor and even a few who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan) getting pawned rather quickly when they start fight careers because they were too slow in evading basic punches or kicks or to react to basic BJJ. Some of these guys who according to scientific testing have superhuman reflexes and perception such as spotting things in pitch black or being able to reach to surprise ambushes in time.

Sports may be a different dog from military H2H but with such peak human reflexes and perception shouldn't they have at least lasted several rounds? The ex-military I saw were pawned within seconds of entering the ring! They should have been able to judging by how their reflexes were ranked in military testing, been able to at least dodge or block against the punches, kicks, and takedowns by the other MMA fighters for a round or two.

I don't know where you get the idea that military personnel have superhuman reflexes. They may have training and experience in specific skills, such as taking cover quickly in an ambush or spotting an IED by the roadside, but those are very different skills from blocking punches and takedowns. Military HTH combat training is very rudimentary.

The reason I ask is that popular media often portrays someone who has above average human reflexes being able to dodge all sorts of things from a soccer ball heading towards your direction to a knife attack from a street thug to some sparring in the gym.

That's very much a movie myth. The reflexes for dodging a punch are very different from the reflexes for stopping a soccer goal are very different from the reflexes for driving a race car are very different from the reflexes for surviving a firefight and so on and so on.

Most martial arts have a knee variation so I'm surprised when sparring against MT many styles have difficulty confronting the knees.

Most martial arts styles don't spar using the knees nearly as much as Muay Thai practitioners do. Even if your style contains techniques for using the knees, if you don't have the experience going live against a skilled person who is trying to knee you, then you won't have the defenses built up.

The baseball bat althrough used twohanded basically is just a simple swing as opposed to Eskrima and other style's complex attacks. Shouldn't defending against a baseball swing (especially seeing how everyone who's got acessed to American TV already seen how its typically executed) be no probs for practitioners of styles that have more deceptive and quicker complex technique?

1) The baseball bat is heavier and more powerful than the light sticks most FMA practitioners train with. If you don't have experience sparring full contact against that sort of heavy weapon, then it won't necessarily be that easy. The Dog Brothers would be an example of a group that does this kind of practice.
2) If you are talking about defending unarmed against the bat, then no, it won't be easy. Empty hand against a weapon is never a trivial endeavor.
 

jezr74

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To me, an actual physical fight it a result of me not reading the scene correctly, was unable to deescalate the situation or am backed in a corner and don't have a choice.

When I'm engaged, in a "RL" situation, I'm listening for other attackers is there one or five of them, are my friends or family members in danger, I'm trying to work out if they have a weapon, trying to make distance to get a fuller picture, assessing the ground if I'm grappled, sizing up the attacker looking for weaknesses I can exploit, looking for strengths I can avoid. I'm trying to survive, adrenaline is pumping through me, things can get blurry, you don't realize your head has hit the curb, someone behind you has hit you with a garden stake, you don't know who's blood is all over your hands. etc.. there is a tonne of things going on and it's very quick.

When I'm boxing in a ring, grappling, MMA, stick fighting, point or submission sparring. I'm watching the opponents body, sizing them up and tracing their movement to see what I can try and apply, or anticipate whats coming. They are generally right in front of me, and I know the strike is coming from one of those things hanging of their body. I'm fairly relaxed. I have a pretty good idea of their fighting style, and have an idea of whats coming. And I'm looking forward to the clash.

The point I'm trying to make is they are both completely different scenarios, apples and oranges.
 

drop bear

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The reactionary gap.

personally i don't think it is the art so much. Lots of people fall into this yrap.
 

Tony Dismukes

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To me, an actual physical fight it a result of me not reading the scene correctly, was unable to deescalate the situation or am backed in a corner and don't have a choice.

When I'm engaged, in a "RL" situation, I'm listening for other attackers is there one or five of them, are my friends or family members in danger, I'm trying to work out if they have a weapon, trying to make distance to get a fuller picture, assessing the ground if I'm grappled, sizing up the attacker looking for weaknesses I can exploit, looking for strengths I can avoid. I'm trying to survive, adrenaline is pumping through me, things can get blurry, you don't realize your head has hit the curb, someone behind you has hit you with a garden stake, you don't know who's blood is all over your hands. etc.. there is a tonne of things going on and it's very quick.

When I'm boxing in a ring, grappling, MMA, stick fighting, point or submission sparring. I'm watching the opponents body, sizing them up and tracing their movement to see what I can try and apply, or anticipate whats coming. They are generally right in front of me, and I know the strike is coming from one of those things hanging of their body. I'm fairly relaxed. I have a pretty good idea of their fighting style, and have an idea of whats coming. And I'm looking forward to the clash.

The point I'm trying to make is they are both completely different scenarios, apples and oranges.

Exactly. There's a trade off between focusing on a single opponent vs keeping a wider awareness. Keeping a laser focus on your opponent allows you to read him better and react with better speed and precision - but in a non-sport setting it can open you up to attacks from 3rd parties. Keeping a more diffused peripheral awareness may allow you to spot additional attackers and environmental hazards - but it can slow down your reactions to the guy in front of you.
 

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To box, or to properly punch with any kind of power, you have to be in position and your body mechanics have to be just so. To use an edged weapon the same rules should apply in training, but in the real world all you have to do is touch. A sharp blade will cut skin, tissue, capillaries, arteries or veins. Often, the bleed out is swift. Damn nasty, too

I think the best way for you to answer your question is to train in boxing and train in the blade. In less than a year you'll probably say, "Ah, right, sure."
 

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perhaps he was not expecting the man to hit him? If they were very close and was angry/nervous/distracted he may not have noticed the guy preparing to hit him
 

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You have to learn the 5 Ds of dodgeball: Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive and Dodge.

"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball."
 

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