Are competitive Sport Martial Artists superior?

Gerry Seymour

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My post was responding to the few previous posts saying Judo is not that good. I am only saying that it's not that bad if compare to TCMA that are striking only.

Wrestling and BJJ are on the TOP of the food chain of fighting arts, you don't talk about them in the same breath with the lower ones that are swimming close to the bottom. If I were 40 years younger, I would learn wrestling or BJJ together with Mauythai, forget TKD or other TMA. Some Judo is good for falling at old age, it is valuable.

You can still do something without the gi in Judo, limited, but you still can. You can still grab the person and do hip throw, or trip them backwards. I forgot all the names already.
You can do a large amount of Judo without a gi (for either you or your opponent), but it needs training, like KFW suggested. The Judo that is contained in NGA is typically performed without relying directly on the clothing, except in a couple of cases, where even a sturdy t-shirt would serve.
 
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Hanzou

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It might be that those folks are only really interested in training for Judo competition, in which case the no-gi training has limited value.

That, but also no-gi grips brings Judo VERY close to wrestling.
 

Alan0354

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Yeah, like I said, I'm not disparaging Judo at all, it has its place (though its kind of interchangeable with wrestling). However, their rules have really neutered the MA, and that's an example of how competition can ruin a perfectly legit martial art. Judo is becoming a shell of its true self, and a lot of Judoka are starting to feel it. Lucky for them, Bjj welcomes them and their skills with open arms.



Hip throws are questionable in SD situations. I was always taught to avoid them unless absolutely necessary. With the trip backwards, are you talking about Osto Gari? That's a solid, and low risk takedown that can lead directly to an armbar. I think that's just fine for self defense.
I think so, it's been 56 years already. Is it pronounced Or-so-to-Gari? There are also leg sweep. Also there is shoulder throw.....Something Ip-pon.......whatever. It's been so long. If you shoot the opponent, wrap your arms around them, hip throw is not out of the question. You shoot, you get so close to the guy, he can no longer strike you effectively. Then you can go for hip throw and shoulder throw. It's not impossible.

The weak point of most striking TMA is if you quickly get very close to them, all the kicks and punches are useless. If they don't know take down defense, they'll be in trouble.

No, I would NOT recommend Judo be the main self defense training, it's better than nothing.
 

Alan0354

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Correct me if I am wrong, it's NOT a hard transition from Judo to learn wrestling and BJJ. We already are rolling on the ground already. Judo just has too many restriction only. So anyone that learn Judo should have an easier time to transition to wrestling and BJJ.

I remember I saw a woman Olympic Judo Champion went into MMA fight and beat a famous BJJ fighter in some MMA fighting(not UFC). She was stronger and out muscle the BJJ and won in the first round. Of cause I am sure she learn BJJ or wrestling, not just Judo. Also I remember a Judo guy beat all the strikers easily in UFC2, but he lost to Royce Gracie. Judo might not be effective, but I don't think it's chop meat.
 
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Hanzou

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I think so, it's been 56 years already. Is it pronounced Or-so-to-Gari? There are also leg sweep. Also there is shoulder throw.....Something Ip-pon.......whatever. It's been so long. If you shoot the opponent, wrap your arms around them, hip throw is not out of the question. You shoot, you get so close to the guy, he can no longer strike you effectively. Then you can go for hip throw and shoulder throw. It's not impossible.
My Japanese is rusty, but I think you're talking about Ippon Seionage (sp?). Again, if you can pull those off, that's great. I was just always taught that any move that requires your back to be turned to your opponent is a liability. Also hip and shoulder throws can be tricky to pull off, and if you mess up, you're WIDE open to get countered.
The weak point of most striking TMA is if you quickly get very close to them, all the kicks and punches are useless. If they don't know take down defense, they'll be in trouble.

No, I would NOT recommend Judo be the main self defense training, it's better than nothing.

No argument there.

Correct me if I am wrong, it's NOT a hard transition from Judo to learn wrestling and BJJ. We already are rolling on the ground already. Judo just has too many restriction only. So anyone that learn Judo should have an easier time to transition to wrestling and BJJ.

I remember I saw a woman Olympic Judo Champion went into MMA fight and beat a famous BJJ fighter in some MMA fighting(not UFC). She was stronger and out muscle the BJJ and won in the first round. Of cause I am sure she learn BJJ or wrestling, not just Judo. Also I remember a Judo guy beat all the strikers easily in UFC2, but he lost to Royce Gracie. Judo might not be effective, but I don't think it's chop meat.

You're certainly not wrong, and no, Judoka who cross train into BJJ do just fine. In fact, as all individuals who have grappling experience entering BJJ, they'll have an advantage over a white belt with no grappling experience, especially in regards to gi-based takedowns and throwing, and gi-based competitions. Hence why it's such a huge benefit for them to be entering into BJJ gyms, because eventually they become BJJ instructors and bring their knowledge of Tachiwaza with them.

Again, Judoka aren't dumb. They see what's happening, and they hate it as much as anyone else.

As for the Olympian who did well in MMA, that was Rhonda Rousey. She did fine until people figured out her gameplan (she was pretty one-note) and eventually obliterated her.

The issue is as time continues, you're going to see less and less Judoka entering MMA and BJJ competitions, and Judo is going to become an insular sport with little crossover appeal. It'll be a sport for people who just want to do Judo, not a sport for people who want to be better grapplers, or even for self defense.
 
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Alan0354

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My Japanese is rusty, but I think you're talking about Ippon Seionage (sp?). Again, if you can pull those off, that's great. I was just always taught that any move that requires your back to be turned to your opponent is a liability. Also hip and shoulder throws can be tricky to pull off, and if you mess up, you're WIDE open to get countered.


No argument there.



You're certainly not wrong, and no, Judoka who cross train into BJJ do just fine. In fact, as all individuals who have grappling experience entering BJJ, they'll have an advantage over a white belt with no grappling experience, especially in regards to gi-based takedowns and throwing, and gi-based competitions. Hence why it's such a huge benefit for them to be entering into BJJ gyms, because eventually they become BJJ instructors and bring their knowledge of Tachiwaza with them.

Again, Judoka aren't dumb. They see what's happening, and they hate it as much as anyone else.

As for the Olympian who did well in MMA, that was Rhonda Rousey. She did fine until people figured out her gameplan (she was pretty one-note) and eventually obliterated her.

The issue is as time continues, you're going to see less and less Judoka entering MMA and BJJ competitions, and Judo is going to become an insular sport with little crossover appeal. It'll be a sport for people who just want to do Judo, not a sport for people who want to be better grapplers, or even for self defense.
It is not Rhonda Rousey, she's younger, in more recent years. Too bad I deleted it already. It was impressive, she's strong( in muscle), she out muscle the other girl. It's not UFC.

I think I am going to stay away from the names of the Judo throws, I was just a kid, like 14 or 15 years old at the time.
 

drop bear

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Correct me if I am wrong, it's NOT a hard transition from Judo to learn wrestling and BJJ. We already are rolling on the ground already. Judo just has too many restriction only. So anyone that learn Judo should have an easier time to transition to wrestling and BJJ.

I remember I saw a woman Olympic Judo Champion went into MMA fight and beat a famous BJJ fighter in some MMA fighting(not UFC). She was stronger and out muscle the BJJ and won in the first round. Of cause I am sure she learn BJJ or wrestling, not just Judo. Also I remember a Judo guy beat all the strikers easily in UFC2, but he lost to Royce Gracie. Judo might not be effective, but I don't think it's chop meat.

One of our students beat a Judo Olympian. She had trained for about 3 years.
 

isshinryuronin

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Agree with you on this. To switch from gi to no-gi is not an easy task. When I suggest no-gi training in a Judo forum, everybody in that forum was mad at me and treated me as an anti-Judo guy.

Besides the no-gi issue, if one doesn't train his throwing skill in a fist flying environment, his throwing skill will not be realistic.
The thing is, judo is a sport. Sports have rules and uniforms, Sometimes, rules, and thus techniques, take the uniform into consideration. So, no gi judo will prevent a number of techniques from being practical as they rely on (and were designed for) grabbing the gi to be most effective.

Likewise, sumo wrestlers use the opponent's padded "belt" to grab and execute many techniques. It is integral to the sport. Without this, the sport changes a lot, and probably be less interesting to watch.

Consider no bunt baseball, no lateral football or no dunk basketball. The game changes and the sport suffers.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The thing is, judo is a sport. Sports have rules and uniforms,
Even if you have jacket on, when you train a throw, you still don't need to depend on jacket. If you depend on your jacket on the day 1, you will develop a habit that's hard to remove. Also if you assume you have to deal with punches, your basic training will include "arm wrap".

 

Oily Dragon

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Let's face facts.

Few of us are at this level, right now.

SO why are you arguing.

 

Wing Woo Gar

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FWIW, I did not at all take @Wing Woo Gar 's comment that way. Rather an indirect way to infer a blind guy could see how bad the technique was. Simply trying to make a strong point. In no way was it a slap against blind people.

For example, if a white guy and a black guy are standing in the same room in another location and someone has to go get him so he can save the world, what is the strongest descriptor you could use to describe the black guy so they know who to get? Too often people get caught up in walking around on egg shells and completely forget that common sense that is right in front of them.
Thank you very much!
 

Wing Woo Gar

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maybe take your own advice this has nothing to do with black or white people. It was never mentioned by me at any time. Just to be clear on this and that you understand, blindness is a condition that can affect any race or creed.
Hope this helps
It had nothing to do with blind people, much the same way your response has nothing to do with logic.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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being blind is not a joke mate. maybe you think it is but i find your comment very distasteful to say the least.
makes we wonder what you織re like at your training.
being blind is not a joke mate. maybe you think it is but i find your comment very distasteful to say the least.
makes we wonder what you織re like at your training.
Im totally Cobra Kai! Strike hard, Strike fast, all that jazz.
 

caped crusader

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In general, if you want to ask something this far off-topic from the thread, you'll get more views and replies (and divert the existing thread less) by posting a new thread.
yeah just did not want to start new threads every question. seems pointless to me.
I am the spirit of Sgt Barnes ;)
 

caped crusader

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The thing is, judo is a sport. Sports have rules and uniforms, Sometimes, rules, and thus techniques, take the uniform into consideration. So, no gi judo will prevent a number of techniques from being practical as they rely on (and were designed for) grabbing the gi to be most effective.

Likewise, sumo wrestlers use the opponent's padded "belt" to grab and execute many techniques. It is integral to the sport. Without this, the sport changes a lot, and probably be less interesting to watch.

Consider no bunt baseball, no lateral football or no dunk basketball. The game changes and the sport suffers.
i think it織s also got a lot to do with Jigaro Kano織s philosophy too, remember he was an educator. he wanted it to be tought in schools..Universities. A way.. "Do" a path of moral education and respect....blah...blah....you get the point.
Maybe the Kodokan wants to keep this philosophy.
some high ranking Judoka embrace cross teaching with BJJ and no GI.
Neil Adams trains no GI look him up a British legend. interacts a lot with BJJ
 

caped crusader

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was my Boyhood hero !

as a young man he beat the Japanese to win Gold. A master !
 
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Hanzou

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The thing is, judo is a sport. Sports have rules and uniforms, Sometimes, rules, and thus techniques, take the uniform into consideration. So, no gi judo will prevent a number of techniques from being practical as they rely on (and were designed for) grabbing the gi to be most effective.

Likewise, sumo wrestlers use the opponent's padded "belt" to grab and execute many techniques. It is integral to the sport. Without this, the sport changes a lot, and probably be less interesting to watch.

Consider no bunt baseball, no lateral football or no dunk basketball. The game changes and the sport suffers.

Judo isn't just a sport. It's also a martial art, and supposed to be a form of self defense.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Judo isn't just a sport. It's also a martial art, and supposed to be a form of self defense.
What I don't understand is why would anybody want to treat MA as sport for his entire life?

I don't mind to compete on wrestling sport without using my kicking/punching skill. But I definite don't want to stop training my kicking/punching skill just because the wrestling sport doesn't use it.
 

Alan0354

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What I don't understand is why would anybody want to treat MA as sport for his entire life?

I don't mind to compete on wrestling sport without using my kicking/punching skill. But I definite don't want to stop training my kicking/punching skill just because the wrestling sport doesn't use it.
That's how Judo is, you want to punch and kick, you have to go learn something else on top of Judo or forget Judo.

That's the reason we all here......talking whether Judo is useful as MA. Honestly, if I have to put in effort to learn, Judo is NOT one to learn. But I also say there is some usefulness of Judo in fighting as I posted already.

Like I said, in point sparring, striking CMA can make a fool out of Judo, but in real fight, for both at the same skill level, my bet still on Judo.
 
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