In Kukki-TKD (and other types of TKD) there are minimum "time in grade requirements" before one can test for the next BB rank. Does Hapkido have a time in grade requirement as well? If so, what are they?
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In Kukki-TKD (and other types of TKD) there are minimum "time in grade requirements" before one can test for the next BB rank. Does Hapkido have a time in grade requirement as well? If so, what are they?
I'm familiar with the post to which you refer.This would depend on the school and what organization (if any) they belong to. TIG requirements can vary widely or be non-existant. Also, it seems rather typical for skipped ranks in Hapkido (and other arts like TKD as well).
It is hard in some respects to justify a set TIG since some of Hapkido's seniors had rather quick TIG advancements. For example, Ji was an 8th Dan at age 28 or so with only 13-16 total training time. That is quick. Others in Hakido appear to have had accelerated advancement as well, and some simply won't supply their TIG at all. My point is it is hard to generate/justify a TIG standard based upon prior precedence. Should it be a year from first to second? Two years from second to third? If so, why? If so, what is the precedent/justification for this TIG standard being set? Was it followed by the seniors of the organization in question? If not, why? If some had accelerated advancement and/or skipped rank(s), what was the justification for such a thing? Not necessarily a bad thing, but does/would it apply to anyone meeting those same justificaitons?
In Kukki-TKD (and other types of TKD) there are minimum "time in grade requirements" before one can test for the next BB rank. Does Hapkido have a time in grade requirement as well? If so, what are they?
I would need to know more about the curriculum before saying anything (is it a kiddie curriculum?) but I will repeat what I repeated on that thread: I cannot see an HKD ildan in a year, and two is really pushing it without some very relevant prior experience (such as an aikido black belt, judo black belt, prior hapkido training, etc.).
RE. children, I don't believe that children should be learning hoshinsul beyond escapes from holds, rolling and falling. There are more than enough HKD striking techniques, more hand/arm and leg/foot than are in taekwondo, to fill up a two year curriculum for kids.
The reason that I don't believe that children should be learning hapkido is physiological. Children's bones, joints, and tendons are still growing and are not developed and are more susceptible to damage than a teen's or adult's.
However, I am told by virtually everyone who has trained in Korea over the past twenty years that a black belt in HKD or TKD is one year, and that it is simply viewed as having completed the basic class.
I still train in hapkido and taekwondo, but it is purely for enjoyment. Any income derived from teaching others is enough to cover costs of materials, mainly pizza. I have a much more formal kendo class that I teach, but regardless, advancement is based on when the student is ready. I have only promoted one student to shodan and her time in kyu grades (we don't use belts in kendo) was roughly four years. I have a very athletic student who just gets it. He picks up everything right away and excels. He also practices a lot outside of class. He will probably get there in less time. I have another student who has been training for over a year and has just gotten to the point where he isn't tripping over his own feet. He will probably take longer than the young lady did.
I use grades to track where a student is in the curriculum. Nothing more. I only charge enough to cover the costs of renting space and fuel costs. I do not charge for tests, so I am in no particular hurry to promote students. When they're ready, they're ready.
Personally, I think that two years in hapkido for an ildan is unrealistic without prior relevant experience. Personally, I'd say three minimum simply based on the volume of material.I agree with you that two years + in Hapkido is more realistic.
It isn't a question of whether or not you and I agree with it; that is the way that it is there. Blackbelts are apparently so commonplace that there is no mystique about them. That may or may not be a good fit for other environments, but in that environment, that is the norm.I do not necessarily agree with the Korean view that BB is simply basic skills in and of itself.
I believe that one can have love of the art and teach for a living. But doing so puts the school owner into a position of having to deal with issues that a not for profit school doesn't need to consider. If the norm is $90 a month and $500 for a black belt test and $20 - $50 belt tests along the way, it can be hard to see outside of that box.Same here. I think the same approach (they're ready when they're ready) should be upheld regardless of whether one teaches for the love of the art or for $. Perhaps a naive belief, but I'll hold to it nonetheless.
Blackbelts are apparently so commonplace that there is no mystique about them. That may or may not be a good fit for other environments, but in that environment, that is the norm.
(Note that my commentary to follow isn't directed at you Daniel, or anyone in particular. Your comment just brought stuff to mind that I thought I'd ramble on about this morning )
I think this tends to be an uncomfortable area that many wish to avoid discussing. To begin with, there really should be no mystique about being a black belt other than an acknowledgement of the hard work that should be required to obtain one. It should of course not be viewed as an automatic ninja-killer belt. Secondly, in Korea it has been generally acknowledged on this board and others, by those living/training in Korea that the martial arts (in general) is for children. Adults for the most part don't have the time or enthusiasm for the martial arts outside of G.I.'s and the like. Again, this is a general statement, from those living/training in Korea. So most of these BB's walking around in Korea obtained them as a child but probably haven't done much/anything with it after becoming an adult. And in general, again according to many of those living/training in Korea who have been forthright enough to speak frankly, often times the level of training in Korea isn't up to snuff. The romantic notion that Korean training MUST be superior/hard core/mystical is often simply wishful thinking. Members have posted videos here of Korean children and their demonstrations/training methods and (in general) it hasn't really been impressive. This isn't to put down Koreans or their training methods, that isn't my point. I'm sure there are schools of exceptional caliber just as in most countries. My point is that the Dan ranks, in many Korean arts, have been watered down to generate a higher profit margin. The bottom line is just that, the bottom line. Looking at the KKW as a prime example, according to their own stats the VAST majority of KKW BB's are Koreans. These Koreans earned a BB in a year or less as a child. The quality of these BB's has been brought into question many times. So really, I can fully see/understand why it there is no mystique about all the BB's running around in Korea. For the most part, I would suggest that the standards are woefully sub-par (in general and recognizing that there are always exceptions) and the Dan ranks are watered down intentionally for material gain.
In the end, if you lower the standards, lower the TIG, water down the training and sell out to commercialism you'd expect BB's to be coming out of the wood work. That shouldn't be looked upon as a good thing or a selling point for any particular art.
I honestly don't think it's all about increasing profits. It's easy to think that way from an American point of view. In Korea, people tend to only do things recreationally to a certain point. After that point, it's your life. Students find out at a relatively young age if they have the potential to be a "player" on the big stage. If they don't have that potential, they tend to gravitate to more "important" things.
So having said that, the training in Korea is hardcore for hardcore students. It's very similar to football in America in that generally the only adults still playing are big time and their training is different from a guy playing in the park with his friends on Saturday.
I'd say training in just about everything in Korea is hardcore at a certain point. This is a country where high school students attend school from 8am to 10pm and may even spend their weekends in private academies studying more. There just isn't much time for hobbies here. Everything is super competitive and wasting time on hobbies is frowned upon.
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Good post. I would suggest, in general, that this demonstrates a lack of depth in Korea in regards to the martial arts. It seems to be more of a game or hobby than an art. As you mentioned, if they don't have/show the potential to excell in the game they move on to more important things. This imho is the problem with viewing the arts through the prism of sport. And that apparently isn't enough to have a holding interest on the youth-to-adult population. If you excell at the game then its fine. If you don't excell at the game the evidence points to a drifting away in mass. And that's a shame.
In many martial arts, the sport version really doesn't have a lot of depth. Before anyone gets offended, let me explain what I mean. Sport versions of arts, by necessity, are block, punch, kick with a certain amount of memorization of forms and drills. Now if you're a gymnist and can excell and/or you're a tough competitor and can win and/or you can put a lot of flash in your form then you can win. Where does this leave everyone else? Obviously we're seeing them drift away to other pursuits. Basically I can see where a kid can get a BB in a year or less in some of these arts...they're just isn't a lot to the art in-and-of-itself. Then I look at older arts and/or Korean arts that don't focus on sport (at least not to the exclusion of all else). They have the same block, punch, kick, drills and kata...but there is something else. Something different. There is depth. In some schools, at least the ones in my experience, a single form could take a year or more to learn because of bunkai associated with it along with all the rabbit trails that it produces (in a positive sense). And these schools, again speaking only of my experience, don't rush rank or even make it a real issue.
I really think it boils down to the cash and that it has been detrimental to the KMA's as a whole. This isn't to demonize or poo-poo sport or to turn this into a sport-bashing thread. But I'm looking long term/big picture here for a moment. If something is important to a person, they will make time for it. KMA's in Korea (as just an example of the home country) doesn't seem to be important enough for some/many/most to continue for the long term. And perhaps, with what is offered, that is a justifiable postion for them to take. Since I'm rambling on, let me continue just a moment longer. What is better; learning 10 or 15 or 20 forms that are basically the same block, punch, kick movements rearranged into different patterns of longer length and maybe complexity? After all, a straight punch is a straight punch. How many forms do you need for that?
Or
Learning a small number of forms/kata where you really, really, REALLY have a full understanding? It isn't just block, punch and kick. I always use Uechi Kanbun Sensei as an example. It took him ten full years to learn three kata. But he was so powerful with those three forms, and had such an intimate understanding of them that 70+ years later people in and out of the art of Uechi Ryu talk about it. And that was passed down to his students as well.
O'well, like I said...I'm just rambling. No one take offense to anything I've touched on as I'm just thinking outloud. Maybe I just think the arts are meant for other things rather than just, "yeah I took that when I was a kid but then I went into soccer...".
I believe there is value in even a superficial study of MA. There is always something to be learned, and it's always possible to go deeper. Sport can be very shallow, yet also surprisingly complex, but the accessibility of sport allows for more people to participate. From a cynical point of view, yes this may mean more money, but it also means the opportunity to give the benefits provided by MA to a greater number of people.
I agree, but with the caveat that in prior discussions on the subject, and likely in subsequent discussions on the subject, for most people who oppose child black belts and who dislike black belts who don't look as skilled/polished/intense as they think they should look, hard work is not enough. Time in grade, sport vs. non-sport, and a number of other issues are consistently brought up in addition to the student's hard work. TI think this tends to be an uncomfortable area that many wish to avoid discussing. To begin with, there really should be no mystique about being a black belt other than an acknowledgement of the hard work that should be required to obtain one. It should of course not be viewed as an automatic ninja-killer belt.
Up to snuff is relative. I'm sure that it is more than adequate for kids and teens in grade school or high school, or for adults who train for lifestyle and fitness. People who want to take it further and either compete at a higher level, be a hard core self defense guy, or perhaps get into cinematic martial arts in movies or theatre train in more intense programs aimed at what they're interested in doing. The same is probably true of many studios in the US. I'm sure that Stephen Lopez preparation for his next grade looks very, very different from that of the average student of the same level at even a very good school.Secondly, in Korea it has been generally acknowledged on this board and others, by those living/training in Korea that the martial arts (in general) is for children. Adults for the most part don't have the time or enthusiasm for the martial arts outside of G.I.'s and the like. Again, this is a general statement, from those living/training in Korea. So most of these BB's walking around in Korea obtained them as a child but probably haven't done much/anything with it after becoming an adult. And in general, again according to many of those living/training in Korea who have been forthright enough to speak frankly, often times the level of training in Korea isn't up to snuff.
I suspect that that comes from the image of training in Japan, which based on what I have heard, is generally a step above training in JMA outside of Japan.The romantic notion that Korean training MUST be superior/hard core/mystical is often simply wishful thinking. Members have posted videos here of Korean children and their demonstrations/training methods and (in general) it hasn't really been impressive. This isn't to put down Koreans or their training methods, that isn't my point. I'm sure there are schools of exceptional caliber just as in most countries.
While I think that that varies more from school to school and area to area, my general rule of thumb is that 80% (hyperbolic) of everything is lousy filler. Go into a book store and you will find a small number of good authors amidst a sea of literary drivel. Go into a record/cd store and you will find a small number of fine musicians (all styles) amidst a sea of corporate product and just plain junk.My point is that the Dan ranks, in many Korean arts, have been watered down to generate a higher profit margin. The bottom line is just that, the bottom line.
I'm not saying that you're mistaken, but could you cite the source?Looking at the KKW as a prime example, according to their own stats the VAST majority of KKW BB's are Koreans.
I won't comment on the motivations, nor on whether the standards are "woefully sub-par," but you could easily say the same thing about the US. Lots of people go in, but lots of people drop off.These Koreans earned a BB in a year or less as a child. The quality of these BB's has been brought into question many times. So really, I can fully see/understand why it there is no mystique about all the BB's running around in Korea. For the most part, I would suggest that the standards are woefully sub-par (in general and recognizing that there are always exceptions) and the Dan ranks are watered down intentionally for material gain.
Personally, I see many of these things as being interconnected, but not necesarilly all at the same time.In the end, if you lower the standards, lower the TIG, water down the training and sell out to commercialism you'd expect BB's to be coming out of the wood work. That shouldn't be looked upon as a good thing or a selling point for any particular art.
Mostly lifestyle/fitness value, which is why many people take up the martial arts in the first place. Even kids programs that focus on self esteem and such fall into the lifestyle/fitness category, albeit on a child's level.What value do you see coming from a superficial study of MA's?
I suspect that that comes from the image of training in Japan, which based on what I have heard, is generally a step above training in JMA outside of Japan.