Hapkido schools a dying breed?

drop bear

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I checked out 4 different places that looked at submissions in the UFC. And all of them listed arm bar as the third most popular submission for ending a fight. So clearly it works.

Yeah. But not the standing arm bars that are being described here.

And also not in the manner in which they are probably being done which we dont know because we will never see it.
 

drop bear

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The behaviour to people like yourself and rat is really quite simple, you have little respect for others and their veiws, you jump into conversations shouting bs, then back it up by youtubejitsu, you have yourcway of training, and that is great, and you say it works for you, and thats great, but to quote others as wu wu voodoo magic, especially when you have no experience. When you are argueing with people like dvcochran you are telling someone who holds a 5th dan in his art, that he is incorrect, when asked on your experience in that art, you have none, then you start claiming, there is no evidence, or secret techniques, when you dont understand the very basics, of what others have spent years training.

Yeah. Look. You can't argue faith based with me though. If dvcochran has studied for years and understands the secrets of the universe. Then he can present them. And we can judge those secrets based on it's own merits.

I have trained faith based for years and it does not stack up against evidence based. This is why when we look at competition or you tube videos of self defence we can see more evidence and more consistent evidence of evidence based martial arts being just better.

It is not your style but the way you are trying to justify your style.

And this moves us mentally from subscribing to magic. To maybe looking critically at what we do. In a practical skill this is very important.

If I am a twentieth impressive seal of enlightenment that does not change a single aspect of what I do. That should only act as a better base to be able to validate a concept. It is not a reason I dont have to.

There is no limit to fantasy. And this is important.
 

Gerry Seymour

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You do that a lot.

It is dishonest.
How? You readily reject the kinds of evidence you use (specifically video and input from folks who use their training in their work), when it doesn't fit your narrative. That seems dishonest, if we're going to be using that word. All I did was put the words in that reflected what you frequently do. I clearly marked what I changed and pointed it out, specifically to be honest about what I was doing. But then you like to throw words like "dishonest" around, because it makes it sound like you're being reasonable.
 

Gweilo

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If I am a twentieth impressive seal of enlightenment that does not change a single aspect of what I do. That should only act as a better base to be able to validate a concept. It is not a reason I dont have to.

The only thing I have seen you do on, and that is if was you, is kick a bag on the floor, in a yard/field, and rather poorly may I add, apart from this, the only thing you have offered is for the most part (because I agree with some things you write, on some posts), is what you have heard the big boys of mma say, that being a load trash talk of tma, and a load of youtube videos.
Heres the thing, you may do some good quality stength training, and some good cardio, but out of the realm of SPORT, your facts and figures mean diddly squat, what you quote, works in a ring, a ring with rules, basically entertainment governed rules, yes it has real hazzards, but mma is good at mma, a science based sport, with the same % of working in sd, as tma, because 25% is the training, the other 75%, is the person, and their mental attitude to what they do, you can be the fittest, fastest, strongest person out there, but if you go to pot, when the preverbial hits the fan.
Fighting is like an antiques dealer, you have specialists, and generalists. A generalist knows a little about a lot of things, and is a good all rounder, the specialist, knows everything about one thing maybe silver, but knows sweet F A about porcelain, but heres the thing, a generalist will gain small profits from a lot of small purchases, the specialist will gain big profits from a smaller field, but a specialist will always recognise quality, because he has experience in better quality items in what ever they come across, through years of knowledge gaining. I thought of that analogy, because you like to go off on a tangent, about everything apart from what you are talking about.
 

dvcochran

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Yeah. Look. You can't argue faith based with me though. If dvcochran has studied for years and understands the secrets of the universe. Then he can present them. And we can judge those secrets based on it's own merits.

I have trained faith based for years and it does not stack up against evidence based. This is why when we look at competition or you tube videos of self defence we can see more evidence and more consistent evidence of evidence based martial arts being just better.

It is not your style but the way you are trying to justify your style.

And this moves us mentally from subscribing to magic. To maybe looking critically at what we do. In a practical skill this is very important.

If I am a twentieth impressive seal of enlightenment that does not change a single aspect of what I do. That should only act as a better base to be able to validate a concept. It is not a reason I dont have to.

There is no limit to fantasy. And this is important.
Never said I have at clue about how the universe works. You are the one who keeps jumping the narrative to the silly extreme to fit you own agenda. Not anyone else.
 

skribs

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Yeah. Look. You can't argue faith based with me though. If dvcochran has studied for years and understands the secrets of the universe. Then he can present them. And we can judge those secrets based on it's own merits.

I have trained faith based for years and it does not stack up against evidence based. This is why when we look at competition or you tube videos of self defence we can see more evidence and more consistent evidence of evidence based martial arts being just better.

It is not your style but the way you are trying to justify your style.

And this moves us mentally from subscribing to magic. To maybe looking critically at what we do. In a practical skill this is very important.

If I am a twentieth impressive seal of enlightenment that does not change a single aspect of what I do. That should only act as a better base to be able to validate a concept. It is not a reason I dont have to.

There is no limit to fantasy. And this is important.

Why are you assuming it's faith based?

I feel the techniques when they're used against me. I use the techniques in sparring, and I have them used against me in sparring. I can usually spot why a technique doesn't work. I can also tell you that when a technique doesn't work, more often than not it's because the person is a lower belt and hasn't quite figured everything out yet.

The same is true for whatever arts you take. People don't go into their first class and have techniques that work to the level that you'd agree is competent. They don't have the muscle memory to execute the technique in a high-stress situation, and they don't have the strategy or experience to know when to use the technique appropriately. It's something that comes with time. You made a snide comment in another thread that I don't know how to jab, because I haven't learned it in boxing. Does that mean that the jab is a mystical technique?

How? You readily reject the kinds of evidence you use (specifically video and input from folks who use their training in their work), when it doesn't fit your narrative. That seems dishonest, if we're going to be using that word. All I did was put the words in that reflected what you frequently do. I clearly marked what I changed and pointed it out, specifically to be honest about what I was doing. But then you like to throw words like "dishonest" around, because it makes it sound like you're being reasonable.

Wish I could Like and Agree, and do each more than once.
 

drop bear

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Why are you assuming it's faith based?

I feel the techniques when they're used against me. I use the techniques in sparring, and I have them used against me in sparring. I can usually spot why a technique doesn't work. I can also tell you that when a technique doesn't work, more often than not it's because the person is a lower belt and hasn't quite figured everything out yet.

The same is true for whatever arts you take. People don't go into their first class and have techniques that work to the level that you'd agree is competent. They don't have the muscle memory to execute the technique in a high-stress situation, and they don't have the strategy or experience to know when to use the technique appropriately. It's something that comes with time. You made a snide comment in another thread that I don't know how to jab, because I haven't learned it in boxing. Does that mean that the jab is a mystical technique?

It is faith based because you seem to be the only person who has seen it work.

And can't show this technique or method working anywhere.

The jab for you is a mystical technique because nobody knows if it works or not.

There are plenty of realistic techniques that when trained badly don't work.

You keep trying to get around this idea that to be good at martial arts it has to be trained honestly.

And you literally can't get around that.

All you do is make the martial art you train dishonest.
 

drop bear

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How? You readily reject the kinds of evidence you use (specifically video and input from folks who use their training in their work), when it doesn't fit your narrative. That seems dishonest, if we're going to be using that word. All I did was put the words in that reflected what you frequently do. I clearly marked what I changed and pointed it out, specifically to be honest about what I was doing. But then you like to throw words like "dishonest" around, because it makes it sound like you're being reasonable.

I have rejected anecdotal evidence. So have you. Otherwise what evidence have I rejected?

If you were honest you would not be constantly making false accusations and then backing down when I asked you to prove them.
 

skribs

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I have rejected anecdotal evidence. So have you. Otherwise what evidence have I rejected?

If you were honest you would not be constantly making false accusations and then backing down when I asked you to prove them.

Your definition of "anecdotal evidence" changes by whether or not that evidence supports your argument.
 

skribs

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It is faith based because you seem to be the only person who has seen it work.

And can't show this technique or method working anywhere.

The jab for you is a mystical technique because nobody knows if it works or not.

There are plenty of realistic techniques that when trained badly don't work.

You keep trying to get around this idea that to be good at martial arts it has to be trained honestly.

And you literally can't get around that.

All you do is make the martial art you train dishonest.

Except, we've had several people in this discussion. People who train different martial arts and don't even know each other, and all of us are capable of discussing these techniques with our experience.

You're trying to make it some random claim that only one person is making, but that's not the case. People who train Taekwondo, Hapkido, Karate, Aikido, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, and various forms of Kung Fu can discuss these techniques and methods with each other. It's not one person. It's most martial arts from that corner of the world. Gerry and I have completely different background and we know what each other is talking about.

It's not a mystical technique to us. You're making it mystical because you don't understand it.

Nobody is trying to get around training honestly. We train well enough to know what works and what doesn't. What you can't get around is that people train in different ways than you, evaluate themselves in different ways than you, and use techniques that you don't know or understand. Literally all of these posts you make are like a teenager temper tantrum because we don't understand you. That's how I see it. That's how it seems more and more people see it in other threads. That you can't handle people with different opinions, so you just berate them and mock them into siding with you. And for some reason you haven't figured out yet why that makes your position hold less and less weight the more we see of it.
 

drop bear

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Except, we've had several people in this discussion. People who train different martial arts and don't even know each other, and all of us are capable of discussing these techniques with our experience.

You're trying to make it some random claim that only one person is making, but that's not the case. People who train Taekwondo, Hapkido, Karate, Aikido, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, and various forms of Kung Fu can discuss these techniques and methods with each other. It's not one person. It's most martial arts from that corner of the world. Gerry and I have completely different background and we know what each other is talking about.

It's not a mystical technique to us. You're making it mystical because you don't understand it.

Nobody is trying to get around training honestly. We train well enough to know what works and what doesn't. What you can't get around is that people train in different ways than you, evaluate themselves in different ways than you, and use techniques that you don't know or understand. Literally all of these posts you make are like a teenager temper tantrum because we don't understand you. That's how I see it. That's how it seems more and more people see it in other threads. That you can't handle people with different opinions, so you just berate them and mock them into siding with you. And for some reason you haven't figured out yet why that makes your position hold less and less weight the more we see of it.

So something exists or not or is correct or not because of some sort of popular vote?

And it isn't opinion. There is no evidence behind your claim. That isn't my opinion.

This is why you are everything that is wrong with martial arts. Because you treat it as a popularity contest of some some sort of belief system. You make self defense The equivalent of astrology.

It is nice you believe in these things but you are ultimately pedalling fantasy.
 

drop bear

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Your definition of "anecdotal evidence" changes by whether or not that evidence supports your argument.

Ok then show a video.

That's right laser eye beams.

So anecdotes and astrology. If you wake up read your horoscope and it says something bad might happen. And it does.

That doesn't prove your system works.
 

skribs

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So something exists or not or is correct or not because of some sort of popular vote?

And it isn't opinion. There is no evidence behind your claim. That isn't my opinion.

This is why you are everything that is wrong with martial arts. Because you treat it as a popularity contest of some some sort of belief system. You make self defense The equivalent of astrology.

It is nice you believe in these things but you are ultimately pedalling fantasy.[/QUOTE]

No. You're everything that's wrong with martial arts. You think that because you train for MMA, it gives you this air of superiority over everyone who doesn't. You think that because you picked MMA over a TMA, that it makes you better than everyone who trains a TMA. You think you're the only person smart enough to weight the evidence. You think you're the only one smart enough to decide what evidence counts and what is "anecdotal".

And because you think you're so smart, whenever people don't agree with you, you assume it's out of stupidity or malice. They're either too dumb to know how smart you are, or they're making up lies (because that's the only way someone could think different than you).

The fact that you think there's no evidence is an opinion. My evidence is the collective knowledge of several Asian martial arts from different countries and lineages. The fact you so callously dismiss them is proof that your opinion is worth about as you think of everyone else. The standards you set are definitely opinions. You just think yours is a fact and all the others are opinions, because you are too narcissistic to realize that what you think are "facts" are your opinion.

Ok then show a video.

That's right laser eye beams.

So anecdotes and astrology. If you wake up read your horoscope and it says something bad might happen. And it does.

That doesn't prove your system works.

I know you think that you're so smart, and we're so dumb. But you're so transparent we can see right through. If I share a video, you'll come up with any number of excuses:
  • That was a compliant partner
  • This wasn't a real situation it was just in class
  • I don't know who that guy in your video is so I don't know if he's good enough for me to verify the technique works
  • This wasn't done in MMA, so therefore your video is pointless
I've had this discussion with you several times. I've seen this discussion from a bunch of other MMA sheep that think the same way you do. You don't want me to post the video because you'll believe me. You want me to post a video so you can poke all sorts of holes in it and continue to think yourself right. You want more information to nitpick.

You think you're slick and manipulative, but really you're just a purposefully-ignorant wannabe-intellectual who's trying (and miserably failing) to masquerade intolerance as logic. When I talk to you, I have flashbacks to a couple of different people, and none of these comparisons paint you in a good light. I think of teenagers arguing with their parents. I think of the Terrible Twos. And I think of my drug-addict cousin trying to rationalize every argument he ever got into. These people, like you, are too stubborn to think about anything from anyone else's perspective, or to learn from the wisdom of anyone else. They think they're right, or they think they're smart enough to get away with stuff, but everyone sees right through you.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I have rejected anecdotal evidence. So have you. Otherwise what evidence have I rejected?

If you were honest you would not be constantly making false accusations and then backing down when I asked you to prove them.
You've also used anecdotal evidence, and even said input from folks who've had to use their training is useful (after having said those were "just stories" when I made a similar suggestion). And you've rejected videos that showed things you ranted against were real, then used videos of your own choosing as ample evidence for other points. You're all over the place.
 

drop bear

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You've also used anecdotal evidence, and even said input from folks who've had to use their training is useful (after having said those were "just stories" when I made a similar suggestion). And you've rejected videos that showed things you ranted against were real, then used videos of your own choosing as ample evidence for other points. You're all over the place.

Lol. Ok then show where I did that.
 

drop bear

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The fact that you think there's no evidence is an opinion. My evidence is the collective knowledge of several Asian martial arts from different countries and lineages.

Twenty pages ago you could have thrown up a video of your arm bars working. But so far you haven't. And I seriously doubt you ever will.

You keep missing this important distinction of course there are TMAs that work. Yours just does not happen to be one of them.

The difference is not MMA vs TMA. The difference is your lack of knowledge in martial arts makes you unable to make your system work.

And we know your system doesn't work because if it did we would have seen it working by now.

And instead of cracking a sad at me. You would be much better off making your system work so that the next time you encounter some meanies like me you can just go. "Here. Cop this." And show a video of your system working.

It is a lot easier that these mental gymnastics that you are trying to do at the moment.
 
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