So why the up and down movement then? Am I missing something? Again, you can flex your knees and raise you back heel without moving your head up and down.
For Sine Wave critics
- Thread starter Earl Weiss
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So why the up and down movement then? Am I missing something? Again, you can flex your knees and raise you back heel without moving your head up and down.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl Weiss
Tried to copy and paste from the article. It did not work.
Under legs it says to keep knees bent. Toward the bottom it talks about raising and lowering the heels.
COULD this be done keeping the head level? Sure.
IMHO trying to keep the head level while doing this would not be natural and require unneeded effort. The issue of the head raising and lowering as a byproduct of the methodology is not mentioned.
So why the up and down movement then? Am I missing something? Again, you can flex your knees and raise you back heel without moving your head up and down.
I really don't think I can ad much of value to that which I posted above except to say, yes, you could make an effort to raise your heel(s) and Flex your knees to employ more of the body's musculature to generate power in hand techniques while concentrating on keeping the head perfectly level. My query would be what would be the benefit of working to keep the head level as opposed to allowing a natural up and down motion (or down / up / down ) as the knees flexed and heel raised and dropped?
Originally Posted by Earl Weiss
Tried to copy and paste from the article. It did not work.
Under legs it says to keep knees bent. Toward the bottom it talks about raising and lowering the heels.
COULD this be done keeping the head level? Sure.
IMHO trying to keep the head level while doing this would not be natural and require unneeded effort. The issue of the head raising and lowering as a byproduct of the methodology is not mentioned.
So why the up and down movement then? Am I missing something? Again, you can flex your knees and raise you back heel without moving your head up and down.
I really don't think I can ad much of value to that which I posted above except to say, yes, you could make an effort to raise your heel(s) and Flex your knees to employ more of the body's musculature to generate power in hand techniques while concentrating on keeping the head perfectly level. My query would be what would be the benefit of working to keep the head level as opposed to allowing a natural up and down motion (or down / up / down ) as the knees flexed and heel raised and dropped?
Keeping the head level helps me to visualize my hip rocking through my opponent horizontally with as much weight and momentum as I can muster. It's not so much keeping the head level as it is keeping my hip level. Bobbing the head up and down means that my hip and body is going up and down, and although I don't have any scientific research to back it up, I feel that wastes energy and momentum. I drop my head on back kick and spin hook kick for example, but my hip stays on a level plane. And my subjective view is that it looks funny when you incorporate that up and down movement in forms. And that up and down hand thing too, I just can't get behind it.
sooshimkwan
White Belt
In order to understand the sine-wave motion in ITF Taekwon-Do you need to be familiar with two things -- (1) the Taekkyeon (aka Taekkyun) connection and (2) the Wave / Circle Principle.
1. Taekkyeon
ITF Taekwon-Do grew out of a number of martial arts; the most influential of these were Shotokan Karate and Taekkyeon. When people complain about the "bobbing" in ITF Taekwon-Do it is because they expect Taekwon-Do to look and work more like Karate. The thing is, however, that Taekkyeon also influenced Taekwon-Do greatly and it seems that General Choi (who trained in Taekkyeon as a teenager) in his later years steered ITF Taekwon-Do in a direction that applied more Taekkyeon principles. Now if you are familiar with Taekkyeon, the "bobbing" movements in ITF Taekwon-Do does not look that strange at all.
I discuss the influences of Shotokan Karate and Taekkyeon here: http://sooshimkwan.blogspot.com/2010/09/sine-wave-motion-linear-karate-movement.html
2. Wave / Circle Principle
The sine wave motion (or as someone said, cosine wave) is actually just an icon for some greater principle --someone on this thread used the word "metaphor," to which I would agree.
"The sine wave motion is an icon, i.e. a simplification, of the wave principle. The sine wave motion is almost always seen in its basic relax-up-down form; however, the wave principle transcends this rigid confinement of three phases. The wave principle could sometimes be seen as a reversal, for instance up-down-up; or it could be expressed horizontally, for example as left-right-left; or even cyclically. It need not have three parts, but could only involve up-down, or may oscillate numerous times. It is recognizable when boxers bob and weave, or when you naturally extend or retract a limb to maintain balance. If you understand the wave principle you will notice it in throws and joint locks."
You can read more about the differentiation of the sine wave motion versus the wave principle here.
I also discussed the wave principle here. The wave principle on which the sine wave motion is build is used in many martial arts, particularly the soft styles, such as Aikido, Tai Chi Chuan, Systema, and others.
I hope I have added something to the discussion.
1. Taekkyeon
ITF Taekwon-Do grew out of a number of martial arts; the most influential of these were Shotokan Karate and Taekkyeon. When people complain about the "bobbing" in ITF Taekwon-Do it is because they expect Taekwon-Do to look and work more like Karate. The thing is, however, that Taekkyeon also influenced Taekwon-Do greatly and it seems that General Choi (who trained in Taekkyeon as a teenager) in his later years steered ITF Taekwon-Do in a direction that applied more Taekkyeon principles. Now if you are familiar with Taekkyeon, the "bobbing" movements in ITF Taekwon-Do does not look that strange at all.
I discuss the influences of Shotokan Karate and Taekkyeon here: http://sooshimkwan.blogspot.com/2010/09/sine-wave-motion-linear-karate-movement.html
2. Wave / Circle Principle
The sine wave motion (or as someone said, cosine wave) is actually just an icon for some greater principle --someone on this thread used the word "metaphor," to which I would agree.
"The sine wave motion is an icon, i.e. a simplification, of the wave principle. The sine wave motion is almost always seen in its basic relax-up-down form; however, the wave principle transcends this rigid confinement of three phases. The wave principle could sometimes be seen as a reversal, for instance up-down-up; or it could be expressed horizontally, for example as left-right-left; or even cyclically. It need not have three parts, but could only involve up-down, or may oscillate numerous times. It is recognizable when boxers bob and weave, or when you naturally extend or retract a limb to maintain balance. If you understand the wave principle you will notice it in throws and joint locks."
You can read more about the differentiation of the sine wave motion versus the wave principle here.
I also discussed the wave principle here. The wave principle on which the sine wave motion is build is used in many martial arts, particularly the soft styles, such as Aikido, Tai Chi Chuan, Systema, and others.
I hope I have added something to the discussion.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
the problem is the bouncing during the taekkyon video in your link was between movement not during (more similar to WTF Taekwondo sparring than sine wave hyung). In particular it's been explained in this thread that sine wave strikes happen on the down phase of the wave. The taekkyon strikes all happened going level or upward during jumping. I see more in similarity with WTF/kukkiwon Taekwondo than ITF taekwon-do.
sooshimkwan
White Belt
As a Taekkyeon practitioner I can assure you that many (if not most) Taekkyeon techniques are performed with the body weight dropped, i.e. "strikes happen on the down phase." Maybe that particular video does not clearly illustrate this, but it is definitely the case for Kyeollyeon (Kyullyun) Taekkyeon, which is the most traditional form of Taekkyeon. Unfortunately most videos on YouTube try to "show off" Taekkyeon and therefore do not depict the basic motions, but rather the more "fancy" -- and somewhat non-traditional -- movements. If you know what to look for, there are moments in the following video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3nmjKvOADo&feature
The basic movement and bedrock of Taekkyeon training is the "pumbalbgi" 품밟기, which is a type of stepping motion based on a triangular form -- you shift your feet, stepping on the three points of an imaginary triangle. An important part of this stepping is to shift your body weight from foot to foot while "dropping" your body weight on each step by bending your weight bearing knee slightly. This is in principle the same as the last downward movemement in the stereotypical relax-up-down sine wave motion in ITF Taekwon-Do. In practise the strike is performed while shifting to body weight in effect forward and downward.
Once you've done Taekkyeon the similarity and underlying principle is obvious. What traditional Taekkyeon does not focus on much is hip rotation for power generation. A focus on hip-rotation (slightly jerking the hip in the direction the blocking or attacking tool is travelling) is something that we (ITF Taekwon-Do) inherited from Karate.
The basic movement and bedrock of Taekkyeon training is the "pumbalbgi" 품밟기, which is a type of stepping motion based on a triangular form -- you shift your feet, stepping on the three points of an imaginary triangle. An important part of this stepping is to shift your body weight from foot to foot while "dropping" your body weight on each step by bending your weight bearing knee slightly. This is in principle the same as the last downward movemement in the stereotypical relax-up-down sine wave motion in ITF Taekwon-Do. In practise the strike is performed while shifting to body weight in effect forward and downward.
Once you've done Taekkyeon the similarity and underlying principle is obvious. What traditional Taekkyeon does not focus on much is hip rotation for power generation. A focus on hip-rotation (slightly jerking the hip in the direction the blocking or attacking tool is travelling) is something that we (ITF Taekwon-Do) inherited from Karate.
