Why didn't the TAGB adopt Sine Wave?

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
Pretty chocked to learn this. I thought for sure the relations between the ITF and TAGB would result in them teaching Choi's sine wave addition to patterns. Especially since the TAGB is huge in GB. Only the KKWs are bigger. Scott Adkins is from the TAGB, just to name one.
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
6,803
Reaction score
2,140
Location
Southeast U.S.
I am sure it has much to do with the people involved with TAGB and their personal MA influences.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
1,420
Pretty chocked to learn this. I thought for sure the relations between the ITF and TAGB would result in them teaching Choi's sine wave addition to patterns. Especially since the TAGB is huge in GB. Only the KKWs are bigger. Scott Adkins is from the TAGB, just to name one.
From what I understand, not even all ITF schools do sine wave.
 
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
From what I understand, not even all ITF schools do sine wave.

99% do. I know of no one that doesn't but it's possible.
 
Last edited:
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
Where do you get your data from?

They can't compete in ITF tournament forms without it, unless they want to lose first round by default. The fact that Choi advocated it and is the founder of organization, etc.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
1,420
They can't compete in ITF tournament forms without it, unless they want to lose first round by default. The fact that Choi advocated it and is the founder of organization, etc.

Do you have literature that says that? Because my research suggests that sine wave was mostly phased out and is more of a fringe thing today. That even Choi stopped advocating for it after some time. I can look it up and provide sources for this later (when I'm on a PC instead of my phone), but my understanding is sine wave is taught in the minority of ITF schools.
 
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
[
Do you have literature that says that? Because my research suggests that sine wave was mostly phased out and is more of a fringe thing today. That even Choi stopped advocating for it after some time. I can look it up and provide sources for this later (when I'm on a PC instead of my phone), but my understanding is sine wave is taught in the minority of ITF schools.

What do you mean? Any ITF world championship has Sine wave. It's not phased out at all.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
1,420
[


What do you mean? Any ITF world championship has Sine wave. It's not phased out at all.

Sine Wave (ITF TKD) | Iain Abernethy

Where did it originate from as I have researched some ITF schools don't teach the Sine Wave to their Forms (Poomsae)?

Sine wave is (IMHO) the misapplication of a principle (dropping power) across the system to give the system a flavor of its own. It did not exist in TKD until relatively recently (I first saw it in 1998 or 1999) but it came from the top. I don't know if Gen. Choi came up with the idea, but he certainly endorsed it. I imagine it never caught on with some ITF instructors.

(My information is from conversations with an old instructor of mine who earned a 5th Dan from the ITF under Chuck Seriff and trained personally with Gen. Choi. He bought in to Sine Wave. I played with it for a bit, then dismissed it. It is certainly possible that I misunderstand the concept, but I don't think so. I think the ITF just needed a "characteristic" that distiguished it from the hundreds of independent TKD schools that do the Chang-Hon hyung.)

As far as I'm concerned it's a concept similar to the falling step as used by Jack Dempsey and sinking from goju ryu and chinese arts. Basically you are dropping your weight into a technique. Some thing that can be useful.

I started TKD when sine wave was not so prevelent and currently train with someone that doesn't really teach it, but it's always been in TKD but only recently has it become so pronounced. There are certainly many ITF TKD branches that don't use it (hip twist was what I was taught).

Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy

So which way should you practice? Well this is a question that only instructors can answer, as for a student you have to follow your instructor, or as an instructor you have to follow your association & what they say they want!

Non sine wave form videos?

because the school I attend, does the ITF forms, but has never done the sine wave. he's been open since 1978

There are plenty of schools that use the Chang Hon forms but don't use sine wave. You're aware I'm sure that sinewave wasn't emphasised until well after the Chang Hon forms were taught and adopted by many instructors across the world. I daresay in the southen United States there's more people who DON'T practice sinewave than do. My first MA instructor was a Jhoon Rhee student. He did not teach sinewave and neither does Mr. Rhee.

I know I'm going ruffle some feathers here. ITF practitioners, let's talk about sine wave. : taekwondo

My ITF training back in the day was in a sort of splinter group so they never taught us sine wave, although when we moved forward we had to move our back foot in a sine-wave shape (say from long stance, the right foot would move forward, sweep in past the left foot and touching it on the way through, then sweep out to form long stance again). Foot never loses contact with the ground. I still have the habit, the current WTF training buddies laugh at me for being a dinosaur.

Thoughts on the "SINE WAVE" as established by GM Choi Hong Hi in ITF.

Look, Honestly, I did the SINE WAVE for 10+ years. It is useless. I met spoke with a real close friend(Grandmaster Kim Bok Man) of General Choi and he stated that he thought that sine wave was useless. He approached the General before his passing and and told him. General Choi agreed with him and wanted to revert, take out, the Sinewave technique out of Taekwondo. But the ITF and other related federations were too big and indoctrinated, and basically to late to change because of General Choi's I'llness at that time.

Sine wave - the ups and downs | ITF Taekwon-Do Australia

When performing ITF patterns, they have a tendency to look faster, even rushed at times, as there is no need for the preparation time Sine Wave requires. This is a charateristic of how the ITF Tul were performed in the early days. Many Taekwon-Do people say. oh it was Taekwon-Do patterns performed in karate fashion. This is also incorrect, becuase this was the Taekwon-Do of the time, as taught by the Founder, General Choi Hong Hi.

Tons and tons of examples of people who train ITF and don't do sine wave. This was from a quick Google search. I spent more time typing the quote tags than I did finding these posts. If you're going to make such bold claims, please try to be correct.
 
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
Sine Wave (ITF TKD) | Iain Abernethy







Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy



Non sine wave form videos?





I know I'm going ruffle some feathers here. ITF practitioners, let's talk about sine wave. : taekwondo



Thoughts on the "SINE WAVE" as established by GM Choi Hong Hi in ITF.



Sine wave - the ups and downs | ITF Taekwon-Do Australia



Tons and tons of examples of people who train ITF and don't do sine wave. This was from a quick Google search. I spent more time typing the quote tags than I did finding these posts. If you're going to make such bold claims, please try to be correct.

There's a difference between an ITF school and ITF off-shoot school. Some people who say "ITF" mean that particular style of TKD associated with the ITF federation (Chang hon style) but not technically ITF in terms of certificates.
 
Last edited:
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
TAGB is case in point. An ITF off-shoot.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
1,420
There's a difference between an ITF school and ITF off-shoot school. Some people who say "ITF" mean that particular style of TKD associated with the ITF federation (Chang hon style) but not technically ITF in terms of certificates.

Can you back that up?
 
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
Can you back that up?

I already did. All ITF world events include Sine Wave. Thus the only possible ITF school that would not use Sine Wave would be one that does not train for the sport side of Taekwondo at all.
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
18,380
Reaction score
5,272
Location
Pueblo West, CO
There's a difference between an ITF school and ITF off-shoot school. Some people who say "ITF" mean that particular style of TKD associated with the ITF federation (Chang hon style) but not technically ITF in terms of certificates.

Last time I checked, there were at least three different orgs all insisting that they are the real ITF.
 
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
Last time I checked, there were at least three different orgs all insisting that they are the real ITF.

And they all do Sine Wave. By "real" they refer to lineage.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
1,420
I already did. All ITF world events include Sine Wave. Thus the only possible ITF school that would not use Sine Wave would be one that does not train for the sport side of Taekwondo at all.
You said it. You didn't provide any literature to prove it, which I asked.

You also claimed that the people who don't do sine wave don't have a real ITF certificate. Where is your proof of that?

As it stands, it sounds like you're just talking out of where most people sit. Back up what you say with facts. If you're as roght as you think you are, it should be easy. Show me some literature or documentation that every ITF school does sine wave, or that every competition requires it.
 
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
You also claimed that the people who don't do sine wave don't have a real ITF certificate. Where is your proof of that?

.

No I did not. I wrote that the only way for a school to give ITF certificates, in other words have direct ITF affiliation, yet not practise Sine Wave, would be to abandon ITF competition, or at the very least the forms competitions. So while they are not theoretically bound to it, they are in practise if they ever want students to compete in ITF world events in forms.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
1,420
No I did not. I wrote that the only way for a school to give ITF certificates, in other words have direct ITF affiliation, yet not practise Sine Wave, would be to abandon ITF competition, or at the very least the forms competitions. So while they are not theoretically bound to it, they are in practise if they ever want students to compete in ITF world events in forms.
Back it up with evidence. All I have is your hearsay. And the more you talk, the less credible that hearsay sounds.
 
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
Back it up with evidence. All I have is your hearsay. And the more you talk, the less credible that hearsay sounds.

I won't do your homework. If you are not affiliated with any of the ITFs, you can't give out a certificate of any of these ITFs. This is not rocket science.

I won't waste more time on you.
 
Top