Why didn't the TAGB adopt Sine Wave?

Earl Weiss

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................ I have seen people/styles take the idea too far and instead of moving in a smooth sinusoidal wave with a rounded peak they move in very steep inclination/declination with sharp peaks, lessening the effect.
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Someone did a comparison of the Videos General Choi Supervised in the 1990's - If you find them they are the ones with Black Backgrounds versus later videos with the conclusion that the performer's motions have become more exagerated.
 

Earl Weiss

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Which is not how the illustration look. What we've ended up with is a caricature of SW

Choi supposedly agreed on his death bed that it had been exaggerated in later years.
General Choi supposedly said lots of stuff on his death bed. Stuff he never mentioned or alluded to before.
 
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Someone did a comparison of the Videos General Choi Supervised in the 1990's - If you find them they are the ones with Black Backgrounds versus later videos with the conclusion that the performer's motions have become more exagerated.

If you are referring to these ones, then I have to say that they are also a very poor representation. The performers are fine martial artists, though.


Compare with this (denis front knee bending is once again inconsistent and frequently not bent enough, but other than that superb

 

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If you are referring to these ones, then I have to say that they are also a very poor representation. The performers are fine martial artists, though.
Suffice it to say these performers were frequent ITF competition winners and hand picked by General Choi to be the model for their respective patterns and these official videos which he supervised,. I am acquainted with several of the performers. (Which does not mean they are perfect.) I value General Choi's opinion more than I value yours. How many International ITF competitions have you judged at? Do you have an ITF Umpire / judge certificate?
 
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The performer's exhibit the infamous bouncing that we've been discussion was a distortion of Sine Wave. If there is nothing better to compare it with at the time, it's not surprising that someone doing it won a world event.

General Choi was a promoter of the system and the source of much of the ideas, but he did not neccesarily set the exact parameters for Sine Wave.

We have the illustration. If one examines the practitioner instead of the actual sine wave, which is interposed as a metaphor, he does not exhibit a bounce
_20200703_014236.JPG
 
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Earl Weiss

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General Choi was a promoter of the system and the source of much of the ideas, but he did not neccesarily set the exact parameters for Sine Wave.

View attachment 22953

You state General Choi did not set parameters but use the illustration he provides from his book?

I'm sorry - This is wrong. General Choi was not simply a promoter. Although he had many assist him and provide input. , he was THE Founder. He set all technical parameters. If you think it was someone else, who was that person or people?
 
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I'm sorry - This is wrong. General Choi was not simply a promoter. Although he had many assist him and provide input. , he was THE Founder. He set all technical parameters. If you think it was someone else, who was that person or people?

General Choi was head and founder of the Chang Hon style of TaeKwonDo, and while the parameters had to be approved by him, he did not tune all of them. Sine Wave was not apart of Chang Hon TaeKwonDo when it was first conceived, making the question of who the founder is not the pressing issue.
 

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This guy is good

This clip make me to think the following questions:

Do you need to

- add power generation into your defense (such as a block)?
- use constant speed for both of your offense (kick/punch) and your defense (block)?
- keep your body on the same level all the time? What if you need to drop down to dodge a high kick?
- ...

Also if you need to throw 3 punches with 1 step, which punch will your foot landing coordinate with (the 1st punch, the 2nd punch, or the 3rd punch)?
 
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This clip make me to think the following questions:

Do you need to

- add power generation into your defense (such as a block)?
- use constant speed for both of your offense (kick/punch) and your defense (block)?
- keep your body on the same level all the time? What if you need to drop down to dodge a high kick?
- ...

Also if you need to throw 3 punches with 1 step, which punch will your foot landing coordinate with (the 1st punch, the 2nd punch, or the 3rd punch)?

I'm not going to adress your points, but he does have power "leakage" on and off. I was strictly referring to his sine wave transitions.
 

Earl Weiss

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General Choi was head and founder of the Chang Hon style of TaeKwonDo, and while the parameters had to be approved by him, he did not tune all of them. Sine Wave was not apart of Chang Hon TaeKwonDo when it was first conceived, making the question of who the founder is not the pressing issue.

If he did not "tune" all the parameters who do you think did?

The term did not exist. What the term describes existed since the 1972 Text which refers to springing action of the knee joint.
 
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If he did not "tune" all the parameters who do you think did?

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One of his masters performing what he had sketched/envisioned as a concept. And in some cases he might have done all of it.
 

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If this is from the 1959 book, as you said - Books have mistakes. (As General Choi acknowledged as well.) That is why they were corrected in later editions. Having the thumb side of the fist at the centerline, was a conscious choice designed to "protect as well as Block" as opposed to leaving it exposed in the Shotokan. / Okinawan Block where the fist was over the knee.
 
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If this is from the 1959 book, as you said - Books have mistakes. (As General Choi acknowledged as well.) That is why they were corrected in later editions. Having the thumb side of the fist at the centerline, was a conscious choice designed to "protect as well as Block" as opposed to leaving it exposed in the Shotokan. / Okinawan Block where the fist was over the knee.

We don't know what is a misrepresentation compared to an evolution of the system. It would be highly peculiar if Choi looked at these pictures and didn't notice that they were nothing like the system he later devised. Especially since you claim he did tune all the parameters
 

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.................. It would be highly peculiar if Choi looked at these pictures and didn't notice that they were nothing like the system he later devised.

Who says he didn't? One of the reasons for later editions being different was to improve the terminology and illustrations of what was previously used.
 
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Who says he didn't? One of the reasons for later editions being different was to improve the terminology and illustrations of what was previously used.

I'm saying he didn't. What you propose as an
explanation is preposterous. General Choi did not purposely leave in various inaccurate illustrations (not just one) to justify further editions. It wouldn't make sense either since the first edition was only in Korean. There's also no way he was misses all of this and takes notice once it's published. Choi was very meticulous in various seminar, and the amount of glaring errors he would miss here does not make one bit sense.
 

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I'm saying he didn't. What you propose as an
explanation is preposterous. General Choi did not purposely leave in various inaccurate illustrations (not just one) to justify further editions. It wouldn't make sense either since the first edition was only in Korean. There's also no way he was misses all of this and takes notice once it's published. Choi was very meticulous in various seminar, and the amount of glaring errors he would miss here does not make one bit sense.

Sir, the difference between you and I is you come to conclusions based upon what you have read. I come to the conclusions based upon what I have read, seen and what General Choi told me. For instance when I had him sign my 1965 edition he said "Many Mistakes in that book. " The need to get the books out trumped the need to have them be perfect which would have delayed things. GM Vitale also references this with regard to the 1965 book which only contains 20 patterns saying the last 4 had been done but due to production deadlines they ran out of time to have them included. Don't view what it took to have a book printed in published in 1959-1972 as being anything like what it takes o do one in the digital age. There were also various "Technical correction bulletins" put out as part of the ITF newsletter indicating errors in texts and what the corrections should have been. LAter editions corrected those items.

There was also an IIC where I passed along a question about an apparent error. We reviewed the text and he told (Now GM ) Phap Lu to make a note of it. To be corrected later. But it never happened. There were other instances where he was asked questions about something in the text and he said "Book Wrong".

>.General Choi did not purposely leave in various inaccurate illustrations (not just one) to justify further editions.<<<

That is not what I said.
 
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. " The need to get the books out trumped the need to have them be perfect
.

Perfect? The original Korean edition is Shotokan reckapaged in new patterns. There's not just a deviation here and there. What makes the TGB case interesting is that they did not split until the 80s, yet Shotokan residuals are still in their system (annoyingly). I say annoyingly because it would be preferable both in spirit and practise if the Chang Hon style of TaeKwondDo was uniform outside of Sine Wave.





So why despite being ITF affiliated all the way to the 80s do they use the Shotokan blocks? They have Chois picture in the background and openly accepts him as the founder just as much as the ITF folks. The only reasonable account I can offer is that they neglected the encyclopedia updates, for whatever reason, rather than their masters having permanent, unalterable muscle memories for 20 years.....!

It's also possible that they learned the new blocks and then decided to go back the Shotokan blocks when splitting from the ITF. It's however not clear what purpose that would serve except immense confusion.
 
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