Why didn't the TAGB adopt Sine Wave?

OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
Again, do you do your side kick any differently between

- kick into the thin air vs.
- kick on a heavy bag?

In patterns I do kick differently, yes. If I want to prep for a sparring session, I will shadow kick the same way I spar.
 
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
What's the purpose for "sine wave" if it's not used for power generation?

It can be a tool used in self defense for forward motions. It is also a way to create harmony and flow in the pattern delivery.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,400
Reaction score
2,595
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
It can be a tool used in self defense for forward motions. It is also a way to create harmony and flow in the pattern delivery.
What you have stated is a bit too abstract for me. :)

- forward motion.
- create harmony and flow.

So the purpose of the sine wave is not for power generation - borrow the counter force from the ground, transfer through back leg, body, arm, and reach to the fist.
 
Last edited:
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
So the purpose of the sine wave is not for power generation - borrow the counter force from the ground, transfer through back leg, body, arm, and reach to the fist.

It can be. I had muscle memory from SW when trying out boxing. And there are boxers who sink into punches in a SW type of way from time to time.
 
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
My body mechanics can change depending on context just as my stance. It isn't fixed. Nothing is fixed when applied.
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,097
Reaction score
579
Again, do you do your side kick any differently between

- kick into the thin air vs.
- kick on a heavy bag?
Yes, - mostly - Kicks on heavy bag, can be done in a variety of ways as can kicks in the air and kicks to target pads.
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,097
Reaction score
579
What's the purpose of the "sine wave" if it's not used for power generation? May be I misunderstand it's purpose completely.
IMO the "Purpose of Sine wave" Tends to put the "Cart Before the Horse" Sine wave describes the smooth rise an fall of the head as the knee or knees are flexed to facilitate power in a hand technique. Various texts on Boxing reference punching power coming from the legs, so the concept is not unique to General Choi - only the terminology is - convenient metaphor to contrast with no knee flexion - Flat Wave, and Sharply angled motion- Saw tooth wave. This knee flexion can facilitate power thru what is sometimes referred to as Kinetic or Closed Chain linking, and since certain motions of the Human Body tend to have various parts wok in concert, (Exhaling on the exertion is a common item) the knee flexion can help use the larger muscles of the hips and abdomen as part of the twist - no I don't have scientific data - but I googled some slow motion videos of Floyd Mayweather and I will leave it to other to see if they think his power shots (As opposed to flicking jabs) use any / all of these concepts. So, back to my initial comment. The purpose is to generate max power when applicable - this is done (partly) thru knee flexion, as a result the head moves up and down - sine wave.
 
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
Whenever you see a boxer throw a mid range jab to the body, he is using SW.
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
6,216
Reaction score
1,853
Location
Southeast U.S.
Donato Nardizzi has a Youtube channel that does a good job of explaining sinewave ideology. It is from an advocating point of view but in no way overbearing about it.
Being a tech/science minded person I appreciate trying to apply/reconcile geometry to MA movements. For some people it can help the learning phase make more sense.
From my experience I have seen people/styles take the idea too far and instead of moving in a smooth sinusoidal wave with a rounded peak they move in very steep inclination/declination with sharp peaks, lessening the effect.
I also think it is prone to leak to foreshadowing, letting your opponent know something is coming. There is just too much "wind up" for me. If you watch the Youtube channel I mentioned you will see some instances where he will drop first so that he can rise so that he can fall. Just too much preamble. IMHO

By in large, I think most all styles use the principal, or at least parts of it, where applicable. The most common being a stepping motion, particularly a rear leg step.
I would say the least applicable may be something like a straight boxers jab (not a dig). I am having a hard time applying sinewave to that type of strike.
If your style teaches long(er) stances there will naturally be fall in you elevation when stepping. Gravity, velocity, mass, etc... can create value to this motion IF you have learned how to apply them.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,400
Reaction score
2,595
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
The sine wave is a repeatable pattern. It's like to beat a drum in constant speed. But a form training should not follow a predictable speed pattern. A form training speed should like to play the music.

When you drive a car, you may increase speed and decrease speed depending on the road condition. You don't want to drive a car with square wheels in "slow constant speed" that turn 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, and ...

square-wheel-car.png


 
Last edited:
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
I detest Sine Wave deliveres that are slow and tensed. They tend to look baggy and contrived. Sine Wave is supposed to be as natural as walking.
 
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
From my experience I have seen people/styles take the idea too far and instead of moving in a smooth sinusoidal wave with a rounded peak they move in very steep inclination/declination with sharp peaks, lessening the effect.

Which is not how the illustration look. What we've ended up with is a caricature of SW

Choi supposedly agreed on his death bed that it had been exaggerated in later years.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,400
Reaction score
2,595
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
Choi supposedly agreed on his death bed that it had been exaggerated in later years.
It's a good idea for power generation if lower stance can be used. In high stance, the leg bend and leg straight are not noticeable.

I like the coordination punch with leading foot landing. I can see that the sine wave training can help one to uniform his body in one union. All body parts start to move at the same time, and all body parts stop at the same time. I believe this is the main purpose for the sine wave training.

 
OP
A

Acronym

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
41
It's a good idea for power generation if lower stance can be used. In high stance, the leg bend and leg straight are not noticeable.

I like the coordination punch with leading foot landing. I can see that the sine wave training can help one to uniform his body in one union. All body parts start to move at the same time, and all body parts stop at the same time. I believe this is the main purpose for the sine wave training.


Knee higher facilitate a potential front kick follow-up with the other leg. The higher it is, the smoother and faster you can execute it.

If you trained Shotokan with stances even lower than default, like extremely low for beginners, ITF-style is very welcoming. It isn't penalized either if you bend the front leg slightly more.
 
Top