For Sine Wave critics

[andyjeffries]

One of the reasons patterns are done is to demonstrate to the observer / instructor that the technical parameters are being followed.

Audible breathing while not always required is done to show that the breathing is properly coordinated with the movement whichj is a important element of pattern performance. Particularly on this video which was put out by the ITF as a model - not neccessarily a perfect one - no specific critique intended Master Norman for performance.

I'd argue thought that it should be specifically not required. I can't really put in to words why I dislike it. I think breathing should be done properly but I don't need to hear someone sounding like a steam train on every movement to see if they're breathing OK.

I do wonder though whether the breathing is specified per movement in each hyung in the ITF as opposed to the Kukki-Taekwondo's just "breathe properly" is followed.

 

[Earl Weiss]

“Sine Wave”, why not “Cosine Wave”? This is just a misinterpretation and over-exaggeration of basic physics principles. Basically, I believe, somebody took high school physics and drew some lofty conclusions and thus created dogma. Non-physics people should not try to talk physics.
If it is “real” why don’t other sports use the same principle? Hmmmmmm.

You have highlighted an issue. You are being too literal. The term is a metaphor.
It takes up all of about 1 page with a rather large illustration in a 15 volume treatise.

If the term "Ocean wave" were used would you critque it as being applied by non oceanographers?

How about the "L" stance not really being an "L" shape. Don't even get me started on a "U" shape block which is more like a "C". Or perhaps a non linguist should not use letters as metaphors.

There is no "Physics" relationship between a sine wave and the smooth curve described by the body's motion. They just appear similar, like amn "L" stance kind of looks like an L. The appropriate science to apply would be bio mechanics as it may relate to physics, but applying pure physics without taking into account the intricacies of the human body as was so aptly illustrated in one of my favorite articles "The Physics of Karate" Scientific American -1979

 

[Earl Weiss]

If you were, for now, to go to a boxing gym and do a boxing style punch with a sine wave movement, do you think the boxers would consider it weird or concordant with how they punch?

I think the methodology would be very much the same, but certainly truncated. For instance I would not bring my opposite hand to my hip, either. That would be wierd.

Also, on those occasions when I boxed I would sometimes find myself taking a step forward while punching with my rear hand. Made the coach nuts. But, since boxers never seem to do this (MMA guys do) it was a fooler. So, yep, they consider tha one wierd.

Now, the issue of pattern motions versus truncated motions gets into a whole other topic of truncated motions under adrenal stress and training the motions larger so they won't become too small under stress.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The key for me though is not about the knees being flexed or head kept level (that min-thread was just a theoretical to see if it was about knee flexion or raising the bodyweight high) - the key is whether the impact happens on a down portion of the movement or up or straight? For Kukki-Taekwondo I'd say straight. For Boxing/MMA I'd say either straight or up. For Sine Wave it seems to be down.

Do you agree with that assessment? Or have I misunderstood the Sine Wave being down-up-down?

I think you have got it. I would have to say if I am reverse punching 4 boards, it's definitely making contact on the "Down"

 

[Earl Weiss]

I do wonder though whether the breathing is specified per movement in each hyung in the ITF as opposed to the Kukki-Taekwondo's just "breathe properly" is followed.

Yes, basicaly it is specified to coordinate the breath with the move. Like other athletic activities you exhale on the exertion. Some tennis players do this quite noticeably.

There seems to be a noted exception with some powerlifting. I got some explanations I really didn't understand as to why they sometimes hold their breath while lifting heavy loads. I think it was something to do with stabilizing the core under load.

 

[andyjeffries]

Yes, basicaly it is specified to coordinate the breath with the move. Like other athletic activities you exhale on the exertion. Some tennis players do this quite noticeably.

Kukki-Taekwondo also has us inhale on the preparation and exhale on the exertion. I wondered if ITF took it a step further and specified during the hyung move-by-move breakdown when to breath in and out.

There seems to be a noted exception with some powerlifting. I got some explanations I really didn't understand as to why they sometimes hold their breath while lifting heavy loads. I think it was something to do with stabilizing the core under load.

That's something I always used to do during Taekwondo... a really bad habit that has just taken me 6 months to break properly.

 

[MSUTKD]

There is no "Physics" relationship between a sine wave and the smooth curve described by the body's motion. They just appear similar, like amn "L" stance kind of looks like an L. The appropriate science to apply would be bio mechanics as it may relate to physics, but applying pure physics without taking into account the intricacies of the human body as was so aptly illustrated in one of my favorite articles "The Physics of Karate" Scientific American -1979

Thanks Earl for being so patient with us. J
First of all “ALL” movement can be mathematically (with physics) studied; it is called Kinesiology. Every year there are hundreds of papers, in real science, physics and biomechanical journals, which look into the science of human movement. In none of those papers is there anything which would support the ideas that “sine wave” is purposing.
I would agree that in human movement there is indeed a wave motion so to speak, but the over exaggerated bounce in the “sine wave” is unnecessary and ineffective if the goal is to transmit momentum “forward” to the target. In fact it is, in my analysis, a waste of energy. A basic understanding of biomechanics and vectors can confirm this.
The use of math terms, like sine wave, and physics terms like gravity, which make no sense here, do not make it scientifically valid. A testable, reproducible and peer reviewed procedure/experiment do. Remember that however sound the logic, if the premise is invalid so are the results.

 

[puunui]

Do you mean the hands bouncing up and down? Or something else in particular?

I guess that is how you describe it, like a bouncing of the hands. Looks funny to me. If you are punching downwards, then I can understand perhaps how sine wave could generate power. But in normal kicking and punching, I want to put as much weight behind my blow as possible, which means that my body mass is traveling horizontally through my opponent or target, not up and down. So my line of motion of my body weight is horizontal, parallel to the floor. that is why for example, having the head remain at a constant height makes sense, because the emphasis becomes going through the target, and any motion up or down wastes energy or kills momentum and weight transfer.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I would agree that in human movement there is indeed a wave motion so to speak, but the over exaggerated bounce in the “sine wave” is unnecessary and ineffective if the goal is to transmit momentum “forward” to the target. In fact it is, in my analysis, a waste of energy. A basic understanding of biomechanics and vectors can confirm this.
The use of math terms, like sine wave, and physics terms like gravity, which make no sense here, do not make it scientifically valid. A testable, reproducible and peer reviewed procedure/experiment do. Remember that however sound the logic, if the premise is invalid so are the results.

I think that you are missing the point. Your focusing on an inexact use of the term. Other than using it for it's descriptive purpose there is no other reference to the term or how that term as used in physics applies to the movement. The wave is not the goal. Flexing the knees and in some cases raising the heel causes the head to move up and down. It kind of looks like a wave. call it a sign wave, an ocean wave or whatever. You cannot view the term in isolation. It is contrasted with a level movement called a flat wave and a sharp up and down movement called a saw tooth wave, Is that bad because there is no saw involved?

As shown in the kinetic linking video the goal is to employ the musculature of the entire body to a great extent from the legs up thru the arms.

With regard to a testable reproduceable peer reviewed project - great idea. when can I look forward to one? How do we account for the human variables?

I like the biomechanics type studies as shown in the kinetic linking video. Simplified to be sure, but AFAIAC it's the same concept that results in the characteristic sine wave.

Just because physics people don't like the inexact application or metaphorical use of the term does not render the concept bad.

 

[puunui]

Flexing the knees and in some cases raising the heel causes the head to move up and down.

But most ready stances have you in a bent knees on your toes position already, so there is no need to change the head level to flex your knees or raise you heel. Which way is your weight traveling during a movement, up and down or horizontally? If it is up and down, how does that result in the generation of power?

 

[Earl Weiss]

But most ready stances have you in a bent knees on your toes position already, so there is no need to change the head level to flex your knees or raise you heel. Which way is your weight traveling during a movement, up and down or horizontally? If it is up and down, how does that result in the generation of power?

The head moving up and down doesn't generate power. The process of having the knees bent and straightening is what allows you to employ more of the bodies musculature.

Here is a simple boxing article:

http://www.mfuz.com/boxing-techniques/boxing-tips-to-increase-your-punching-power.html

There are a gazillion more articles like this. Having the knees bent by itself doesn't do this. It's having them bent and then straightening to do this which gives the "up". Now if this happens when your feet are close togethr and the punch extends while stepping forward with one leg your head level naturaly sinks. If stationary, after the "UP" you are returning to the bent knee position which provides the down.

The characteristic "Down" in the down-uo-down" is nothing more than an initial relaxation (IMNSHO often exagerated) . It's like telling someone with feet side by side in a slightly bent knee position to jump up. They will usualy not just straighten their knees to jump, but slightly relax and go down first.

 

[andyjeffries]

The head moving up and down doesn't generate power. The process of having the knees bent and straightening is what allows you to employ more of the bodies musculature.

Here is a simple boxing article:

http://www.mfuz.com/boxing-techniques/boxing-tips-to-increase-your-punching-power.html

There are a gazillion more articles like this. Having the knees bent by itself doesn't do this. It's having them bent and then straightening to do this which gives the "up". Now if this happens when your feet are close togethr and the punch extends while stepping forward with one leg your head level naturaly sinks. If stationary, after the "UP" you are returning to the bent knee position which provides the down.

The characteristic "Down" in the down-uo-down" is nothing more than an initial relaxation (IMNSHO often exagerated) . It's like telling someone with feet side by side in a slightly bent knee position to jump up. They will usualy not just straighten their knees to jump, but slightly relax and go down first.

I absolutely agree with you that going down then up can give you more power. However, I'd say it's optimal as down then back to level (so up from the down, but not up above normal). If you go up above normal (which General Choi seemed to do, along with some of these other demonstration videos in this thread) that's when you're coming down from high and dont have the rooting to fully transmit power.

 

[RobinTKD]

I have to say I don't like that. I also don't like what he does with his hands in between the arm movements.

i have to agree with this, we use the sine wave at our classes, but his hands seem very sloppy in that video.

also, do those who study Kukkiwon TKD use backward motion?

 

[Lord-Humongous]

The hand movement is intentional and part of sine wave as we practice it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

that's when you're coming down from high and dont have the rooting to fully transmit power.

I understand your thought and the "Above Normal" is a matter of degree.

 

[puunui]

also, do those who study Kukkiwon TKD use backward motion?

What do you mean by "use backward motion"?

 

[puunui]

The head moving up and down doesn't generate power. The process of having the knees bent and straightening is what allows you to employ more of the bodies musculature.

Here is a simple boxing article:

http://www.mfuz.com/boxing-techniques/boxing-tips-to-increase-your-punching-power.html

I read the entire article. It doesn't mention anything about the head going up or down or any sine wave type explanation. It mentions pivoting, but nothing about your head height changing when doing that. You can have your knees bent and your head won't go up and down. I guess I still don't get it.

 

[RobinTKD]

What do you mean by "use backward motion"?

we use it as part of the sine wave, but also in self defence techs.

basically what we are told, is that TKD isn't about arm and leg movement, it's about body movement, so we move the body in the opposite direction to the one we intend to go, and then go back to generate more power, basically go up to go down, go left to go right etc.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I read the entire article. It doesn't mention anything about the head going up or down or any sine wave type explanation. It mentions pivoting, but nothing about your head height changing when doing that. You can have your knees bent and your head won't go up and down. I guess I still don't get it.

Tried to copy and paste from the article. It did not work.

Under legs it says to keep knees bent. Toward the bottom it talks about raising and lowering the heels.

COULD this be don keeping the head level? Sure.

IMHO trying to keep the head level while doing this would not be natural and require unneeded effort. The issue of the head raising and lowering as a byproduct of the methodology is not mentioned.

 

[puunui]

basically what we are told, is that TKD isn't about arm and leg movement, it's about body movement, so we move the body in the opposite direction to the one we intend to go, and then go back to generate more power, basically go up to go down, go left to go right etc.

I would call that telegraphing, something that we don't want to do. So I guess the answer is no, we do not use backward motion if possible.