Sine-wave

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Ty K. Doe

Guest
My school uses the ITF forms (chon-ji, etc.) However, we do not use the sine-wave. Just curious to know the general feeling about using the sine-wave as aposed to disregarding it altogether. Perhaps some of you could provide some pros and cons to either using the sine-wave or not using it.
 
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RCastillo

Guest
To me, the sine wave really make a difference when you do forms. It's looks smoother, less rigid, with the emphasis of the hips for power.

Before I went with the ITF, we also did forms w/o it, and I found that of you did not do ITF, you were outdated. They improved all of my work within TKD.:)
 
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kickyou

Guest
The sine wave really helps with power and it does look better.Once you learn how to do it properly it feels very natural and improves your performance in patterns.
 
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Bagatha

Guest
For the most part sine wave is just a label. It is a name given to something that we all do anyway, just some people didnt notice. When you walk down the street you are using sine wave(up down, up down). The ITF has simply chosen to "accentuate" this movement slightly by doing different things, sometimes you go on your toes(up-down), sometimes you go down before up when staying in the same stance(down-up-down), when walking/stepping you usually bend your knees so it feels like your going down first but really your not your simply staying the same 'height' until the last 1/2 of the movement where you go up and then downward very sharply, literally falling into your technique. Performing sine wave is just a way of controling how much of your body mass you want to put into your block/strike. And it definatley looks cool.
 

arnisador

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In karate they always stressed to me the importance of your head always remaining at the same level. What is being described here makes sense though.
 
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Bagatha

Guest
Sir, could you explain a bit more? I am genuinely interested. Most people put down sine wave without knowing what it is about, but here you have shown that much thought has gone into the movement (or lack of). tks.
 
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Agrippa

Guest
The best thing to do is to either fnd a good instructor who can explain and demonstrate it to you...

Failing that purchase the Legacy CD from itf-information.com...

I used to be in the ranks of unbelievers until a few years ago but I tell you.. Sinewave works...!!

Also it is not enough to 'just' add sinewave to your movements... You must study the 'secrets of training' and 'theory of power' in the encyclopedia and apply them... These are also online at itf-information.com...

Agrippa
 

KumaSan

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Sounds interesting! Thanks for the explanations and thanks also for the links. Looks like I have something else to read up on tonight...
 
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kickyou

Guest
Kumasan,
If the links do not help let me know and I will see if I have some links to people performing the patterns with signwave in them.
 
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Ty K. Doe

Guest
I have have seen other people use the sine-wave in their kata's. I guess perhaps I just don't "Get it." I understand the philosophy behind the technique but I can't understand its practicallity.

Perhaps I should explain that by nature I am a traditionalist, which may be the reason for my bias. I have always been taught that when you move, your head should not change elevation, your feet should slide along the ground rather than step, and that your technique should be crisp (movements which are smooth and relaxed upon execution but explosive upon impact).

I have heard that the technique creates power. But I have to ask is it significant? Yet at what cost? Let me explain my questions.

The way that I understand forms, is that as you practice forms, you train your muscles to remember certain techniques. So the more you practice your forms, the less you have to think about how to execute in real situations. I was told by a hard core ITFer, that the Sine-wave is not to be applied in real-life or sparring situations. Then what's the point? If I practice my technique by hopping up and down, then when I go to apply my technique it would be reasonable to assume that I would move up and down. If I were sparring, my opponent would definitely see this because I would ultimately be telegraphing my attack. So I would have ask how effective is this technique? At what cost do I need this extra bit of power.

Also, how much movement is enough? If you must move up and down significantly enough that it is noticeable, I have sacrificed my attack because of my telegraph. I know it's only supposed to apply in forms. But you ultimately do what you practice. On the other hand, if the up and down motion is insignificant to where your movements can't be detected what's the point? Surely you couldn't generate enough power to be significant. And if this technique is only to be applied in forms what's the point, that extra bit of power is good for nothing anyway?

I have witnessed these forms being done and I must say, their appearance is a little less than desirable. In all honesty, it looks sloppy. I've been told that I need to see someone who knows how to perform the technique well to understand how "Awesome" it really looks. Nobody seems to know anybody who can perform the technique well. What's the point if you can't teach anybody to do it the right way? I may be wrong, but I don't see how these kata's can win in any open competitions? I haven't seen them win yet.

I don't know if I've made any sense. I guess I would like to know how many of you like this technique or dislike it.

I'm not trying to bash anyone, I have real questions that need answers. Please don't take any of this out of context, and I would appreciate some good feedback, one way or the other.

:asian:
 
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Bagatha

Guest
First to address the issue of forms. There are many things in forms you are NOT going to do in real life. Sine wave is the least of your worries. What if (god forbid) out of instinct you used proper reaction force and put your hand on your hip? You cant use really very much of anything you learn in forms in real life. What you can use is the applied theory the forms have shown you such as balance, speed, center of gravity, torque etc. But no actual techniques as shown so there cannot be an argument.

Telegraphing in forms. They are forms. They cant be used anyway, so again dont worry about it. You dont do stances when you spar either, are you saying we shouldnt learn them? You should understand the mechanics of the body anyway just to learn them, if not you might aswell join JKD or a style of ju-jitsu that doesnt have forms.

Again sine wave is a label, you DO do it when you spar, just pay attention. You cant take a step without it.

"whats the point if you cant teach it to anyone the right way"?

Dont shoot the messenger, its the student that cant do it the right way, out of observation I would say most people dont really start getting it kinda down right until they are 3rd degrees. Why? because people over-look it. They will go years working on other stuff, because they think they have it down and then they go to a seminar and find out they suck and have to start working at it all over again. I dont know how many cocky 4th degrees Ive seen go up at a seminar, thinking they are showing off and ending up standing there for half an hour getting their sine-wave fixed. Its harder than it looks because there are different kinds that apply to certain parts of the forms. Its not always the same, takes years of practice. When you get it (at least sorta) you appreciate it alot more.

My instructor won gold in forms at an open competition once. He did choong-moo.

Ive won second b4
 

Klondike93

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If I'm reading this right they use to call it "spring step" when doing the forms.

I didn't like then and still don't like it now, too much bobbing up and down.

Don't hate me, just my opinion.

:asian:
 
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Bagatha

Guest
"I hate you"!!! j/k:mad: :D

there should be no "spring" though, some people do do that and it would be an example of doing it wrong(ITF).

hateyouhateyouhateyou!!! LOL,:cool:
 
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Ty K. Doe

Guest
There are many things in forms you are NOT going to do in real life.

They cant be used anyway, so again dont worry about it. You dont do stances when you spar either, are you saying we shouldnt learn them?

That is something else I don't understand. You should do in real life what you practice in forms. Otherwise it's not a martial art, its just throwing your arms and legs in the air. A small example would be when your lined up toe-to-toe with your opponent and he leaps in the air to try to nail you with a backfist to the head, you shuffle in with a headblock and a tag him in the ribs with a reverse punch. You did not perform a sine-wive. You slid in and you were in a front stance for your counter and attack. The next time you line up toe-to-toe, your opponent rushes in with a side kick, you shuffle back into a back stance blocking with an arbcheechee, then retaliating with a rear leg roundhouse to the gut as his leg is falling back to the ground. These are minor examples but these are moves that you do perform in kata's. I guess the thing is, when I do compete I do perform my technique just like I do in the forms. Perhaps I'm an exception, but I do have several trophies, so it's not that my technique doesn't work.

Dont shoot the messenger, its the student that cant do it the right way, out of observation I would say most people dont really start getting it kinda down right until they are 3rd degrees. Why? because people over-look it.

I don't understand this either. I would think that it would be foundational to every other technique that is performed. How can it be overlooked. If it's so important how can an instructor let a student andvance without learning the technique. I realize there are a few people who are limited by their physical abillity and they should be an exception. But how can you teach something foundational and overlook it. If it's gonna be taught the instructors should know how to do this before teaching it the wrong way. Once you learn something a certain way it's hard to (possible but hard) to tear apart and rebuild it, especially when it's been practiced a certain way over and over and over again. I would assume in most cases years. Again, this is why we do forms. You pracitce them so much that the movements become an instinct. You don't need to think about doing it, you just do it. If you do it enough, you will spar the way you pracitice your technique in forms.

Its not always the same, takes years of practice. When you get it (at least sorta) you appreciate it alot more.

How can you get it "at least sorta?" If you don't do it right, is it worth doing? Kinda like excerising, if you do the excersize wrong, your doing it for nothing. And how can someone be satisfied with sorta, except, perhaps for those who are physically limited.

I guess, I'm asking for something more concrete. I've been given these same reasons before. But I have not observed these things you describe to me. Maybe I'm too dense, and am looking at the wrong things. Or maybe my ego is telling me there's no other way than my way, but believe me, if there is a greater benefit to this I would want to learn it. But so far I have not been convinced of it.
 
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Bagatha

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Its nobodys job to convince you, either you want to learn something or you dont. In my opinion, until you have learned it, you cannot argue its value, that applies to anything. You cant argue something you dont undertstand.

P.S. you cant "shuffle" without using sine wave either.
 
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Ty K. Doe

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Why would I want to learn something if I don't know what benefit it has?

If I'm an instructor (which I'm not) why would I want to teach this to others.

I always do my best to keep an open mind. Honestly, I get tired of people who belittle other styles by making ignorant claims when they've never even seen the style they're putting down. I can't stand it when people say they have perfected their style. Each style is in a constant state of evolution. And I am not belittling the sine-wave technique. I'm trying to understand it's value. Like I said, if there is a greater benefit to it, I most certainly do want to learn it.

I don't really care to hear arguments from people who have never practiced without using the sine-wave. I want to know from people who trained traditionally then began the sine-wave if there are greater benefits.

Perhaps I should ask this question.

Sine-wave, thumbs up or thumbs down? If thumbs up, why? If thumbs down, why?

I would like to hear from more than just a couple of people, please.

:asian:
 

Klondike93

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Originally posted by Bagatha

"I hate you"!!! j/k:mad: :D

there should be no "spring" though, some people do do that and it would be an example of doing it wrong(ITF).

hateyouhateyouhateyou!!! LOL,:cool:

That explains why my ears were ringing all day long :rofl:

I still remember the day (now)GM Sereff introduced that "spring step" stuff to us all. But it's not sine-wave huh? I must go and read for awhile.

:asian:
 
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Bagatha

Guest
I dunno, maybe its like some cutsie nickname he gave apraticular type of sine wave or something. It makes me think of "bobbing" in the middle which would be wrong for sure, but it could be my interpretation that is wrong who knows.

(hateyouhateyouhateyou)LOL!! please dont take me seriously.:p
 
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Drunken Master

Guest
I am a green tag (7th Kup) ITF Taekwon-Do student and am only just really getting to grips with the sine-wave.

Personally I think the sine-wave is a good thing. I have tried to perform patterns and movements without it and then using the sine-wave. I have also used the sine-wave for breaking.

Using the sine-wave, in my opinion, helps to generate more power in whatever movement you are performing.

Let's hear it for General Choi.
 

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