Why didn't the TAGB adopt Sine Wave?

Earl Weiss

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Quick story - People don't like change. 1990 was my first IIC. I took note of 150 things I had to fix. (I had been doing the General's system since 1971 and had some of the most senior instructors in the world). I went back to my club and start talking about all this stuff we needed to fix. . Plenty of people said what they had been doing was good for 10 or more years and did not want to change.
 
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Quick story - People don't like change. 1990 was my first IIC. I took note of 150 things I had to fix. (I had been doing the General's system since 1971 and had some of the most senior instructors in the world). I went back to my club and start talking about all this stuff we needed to fix. . Plenty of people said what they had been doing was good for 10 or more years and did not want to change.

So how did Choi manage to more or less universally implement Sine Wave into the ITF syllabus, eventually?
 

Earl Weiss

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So how did Choi manage to more or less universally implement Sine Wave into the ITF syllabus, eventually?
In the late 1980's the ITF started a program of conducting IICs throughout the world. (There were earlier ones but very few for the "Super Seniors) My last IIC cert which is the last one General Choi did was #187- so he did 187 of them Those I know who competed internationally said that in that 1980's there were large variations in the way things were one. Remember that prior to this we did not have easily accessible video via internet or even home players. These same people competing or coaching said by the early 1990's differences were very small. My own experience having done what we called "Spring Style" since the 1970's was that it was somewhat different that what I saw him teach at my first IIC in 1990. Although I understood it, I had some difficulty adjusting my habits. I actually flew in someone who was a better physical specimen that I for a seminar to show and teach my students. It probably took me about 6 months of working at it to refine my habits.
 
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In the late 1980's the ITF started a program of conducting IICs throughout the world. (There were earlier ones but very few for the "Super Seniors) My last IIC cert which is the last one General Choi did was #187- so he did 187 of them Those I know who competed internationally said that in that 1980's there were large variations in the way things were one. Remember that prior to this we did not have easily accessible video via internet or even home players. These same people competing or coaching said by the early 1990's differences were very small. My own experience having done what we called "Spring Style" since the 1970's was that it was somewhat different that what I saw him teach at my first IIC in 1990. Although I understood it, I had some difficulty adjusting my habits. I actually flew in someone who was a better physical specimen that I for a seminar to show and teach my students. It probably took me about 6 months of working at it to refine my habits.

But weren't the encyclopedias accessible world wide? What adjustments did you have to make from knee spring to sine wave?
 

Earl Weiss

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But weren't the encyclopedias accessible world wide? What adjustments did you have to make from knee spring to sine wave?

I think the encyclopedia has a publication date of 1983 but in my experience most of the texts were not readily available until a year or 2 after whatever the publication date was. Then you have the delay in people getting them. The CD ROM with pattern videos became available in the late 1990's. . Then you have the issue of difficulty when it comes to describing a 3 dimensional motion in a 2 dimensional medium. I think I mentioned previously how we did not understand "Hooking Kick" the defensive on in Ko Dang and Ju Che, or how the Pick shape kick differed from downward kick from text illustrations.

Prior to the course we raised our heels off the floor in sitting stance and set them down again as we punched. This was not needed when knees were flexed. Another example would be a stationary walking stance where we would now raise the rear heel, and bend the rear leg to allow the knee to flex and set the heel back down as we punched. (I don't recall what I did before then.) At this time (1990) General Choi would say "Up / Down" But as I watched him -say for example in a sitting stance punch there would first be a slight relaxed Downward motion. As I related I flew a guy in from the course to do a seminar on this because he was one of those guys I love to hate. He has better physicality than I and he can seemingly see something and copy it without conscious thought. I asked him about the initial slight down and at first he said "NO" but then as he thought about what he was doing he said yes. - but just a little. Sr. GM Sereff relates traveling with General Choi not long after the course and taking note of the initial slight down. At subsequent courses, the same method was shown, but now explained as down up down.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Quick story - People don't like change. 1990 was my first IIC. I took note of 150 things I had to fix. (I had been doing the General's system since 1971 and had some of the most senior instructors in the world). I went back to my club and start talking about all this stuff we needed to fix. . Plenty of people said what they had been doing was good for 10 or more years and did not want to change.
I think this is more an issue in martial arts (or other organizations) where changes are dictated from the top down. If you've been doing something one way for ten years and you're happy with how it works, then when some grand poobah at the top of the org chart says "now throw that out and start doing it this way" you may not be so motivated to jump in to the new method.

BJJ techniques evolve at a fairly fast pace. A lot of fundamental techniques I learned 20 years ago have changed significantly since then, in some cases using completely different body mechanics. The difference is that there is no authority dictating the change. People (fighters/competitors/instructors) have just discovered improvements that make the techniques work better. If you don't keep up with the evolutionary process then you're likely to get your *** kicked by the people who do. That's generally enough incentive that we're eager to learn the new methods.
 
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I think this is more an issue in martial arts (or other organizations) where changes are dictated from the top down. If you've been doing something one way for ten years and you're happy with how it works, then when some grand poobah at the top of the org chart says "now throw that out and start doing it this way" you may not be so motivated to jump in to the new method.

BJJ techniques evolve at a fairly fast pace. A lot of fundamental techniques I learned 20 years ago have changed significantly since then, in some cases using completely different body mechanics. The difference is that there is no authority dictating the change. People (fighters/competitors/instructors) have just discovered improvements that make the techniques work better. If you don't keep up with the evolutionary process then you're likely to get your *** kicked by the people who do. That's generally enough incentive that we're eager to learn the new methods.

Western Boxing has evolved too. Although it might surprise people to know there are boxing instructors who insist on certain mechanics. I was for instance not allowed to throw vertical hooks on the heavy bag, only horizontal. That type of dogmatism is usually associated with TMA.
 

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Western Boxing has evolved too. Although it might surprise people to know there are boxing instructors who insist on certain mechanics. I was for instance not allowed to throw vertical hooks on the heavy bag, only horizontal. That type of dogmatism is usually associated with TMA.
I agree with what Tony Dismukes said as far as techniques/teachings changing over time. As information became more readily available, so did better understanding of how to do just about everything, including MA techniques and western boxing.
Assuming, you are talking about fist orientation, I doubt that has anything to do with why you were told not to throw vertical hook punches.
 
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I agree with what Tony Dismukes said as far as techniques/teachings changing over time. As information became more readily available, so did better understanding of how to do just about everything, including MA techniques and western boxing.
Assuming, you are talking about fist orientation, I doubt that has anything to do with why you were told not to throw vertical hook punches.

Vertical and horizon tal refers to the angle of the elbow. There is also a distinction in fist configuration, however, called european vs american hook
 

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Vertical and horizon tal refers to the angle of the elbow. There is also a distinction in fist configuration, however, called european vs american hook
So were you in one area of the world trying to learn from someone in the other area of the world?
 
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So were you in one area of the world trying to learn from someone in the other area of the world?

I was not referring to the positioning of the fist, but that is also something boxing coaches differ on.. Regardless of which country you're in
 
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Wouldn't a vertical elbow punch be an uppercut?

No. The thumb is facing you in an uppercut and you are you doing an upward punch. A vertical hook travels up and to th side side, elbow down.
 
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Turning punch in ITF but with the elbow down is a vertical hook in boxing.
 

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No. The thumb is facing you in an uppercut and you are you doing an upward punch. A vertical hook travels up and to th side side, elbow down.
I have never seen/heard of the punch you are describing. Cannot picture how it would even be possible. Can you post a video?
 
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I have never seen/heard of the punch you are describing. Cannot picture how it would even be possible. Can you post a video?

It's exactly like doing the turning punch in ITF but neglecting the horizontal angle of the elbow.
 

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