For Sine Wave critics

[andyjeffries]

Yep, I agree with Punni. That's a non sine wave video. Watch this for correct application of sine wave:

This is a perfect example of what I dislike about sine wave. This is far too bouncy. Also, I notice that the bounciness seems to stop about 90% of the way through the movement (earlier than I expected) so I wonder if the extra energy (by kinetic linking, although I haven't seen that video yet, or gravity) dissipates before impact.

 

[andyjeffries]

I have to say I don't like that. I also don't like what he does with his hands in between the arm movements.

Do you mean the hands bouncing up and down? Or something else in particular?

 

[andyjeffries]

I would submit that if your profile as a Blue Belt is correct you need a wider range of experience before you can state what is, and what is not "correct' sine wave.

This is another thing I dislike about Sine Wave, it's some mythical technique that a blue belt should not have enough experience of before you can judge whether it's correct.

I always worry about mythical techniques like this (like Ki generation) where "you haven't been doing it long enough to get it, keep trying for many years and you will.

Out of interest, Earl, at what grade do you think he'd have enough experience to state what is and what is not correct? Probably not a question you've thought of, but I guess there would be a cut off point when you looked at his profile and though "I disagree with him, but he has enough experience to make his own valid opinion".

 

[andyjeffries]

OOPS. sorry see:
http://www.break.com/index/anatomy-of-a-one-punch-knock-out.html

Kinetic linking part starts t about 1:10

Ah OK, I've seen that before (I have the whole documentary sitting on a hard drive somewhere). However, that doesn't explain about the coiling/uncoiling we were discussing promoting kinetic linking.

I also don't see how sine wave increases kinetic linking, this is just about effectively the power coming up every muscle/joint from the floor to the strike and I don't see how Sine Wave does that any more efficiently than non-Sine Wave. In fact, I'd say the reverse is true as you're using your having to relax some of those muscles used to push from floor to strike in order to drop from the high point of the sine wave.

Also, if it improved power like it's supposed to surely other combat sports (such as boxing or MMA) would have also started using it within their techniques?

 

[andyjeffries]

The issue of copying an exageration or the "If some is good more is better" Idea is a problem. The same thing happened with hip twist and I think one of the videos captures General Choi critiquing someone for the exagerated hip twist.

It's always a problem, but I think more so when you have a technique that there isn't as much widespread knowledge about (as this recent example of a blue belt/red tag not having enough experience to know if it's correct of not shows).

Can you do the sine wave technique keeping the head level? No, then you would not have the up and down motion.

I did't know if you could do it by internally coiling/uncoiling the muscles, maybe of the core - so they have a sine wave pattern of contractions, without the rising and falling.

Could you try to get the same effect by keeping the head level while flexing the knees? Perhaps, but why?

I'm just trying to get a grip on where the increase in power comes from...

As another question to you as a sine wave practitioner - do you notice an increase in power between sine wave and non-sine wave? From Master Anslow's document it seems the power difference is negligible (and potentially non-sine wave is more powerful), but I wondered what YOU feel.

Also, say you hit a bag with testing equipment to measure power and it was found to not increase power (hypothetically), would you stop doing it? Is it more important to you that you follow the founder of your kwan's wishes or that you teach your art in a way that's easier for students/most effective?

I view it the same as boxers who flex their knees when they punch, there is a slight up and down motion.

Viewing these examples of punches at about 2:05 and 3:05 in this video they seem to drop before impact and then be rising up, rather than rising up then down in to the impact.

This I can understand - bending the knees (down) before punching (up) so that you're pushing with your legs in to the floor to get more kinetic linking. It's the coming down as you punch as in sine-wave that seems counter-intuitive for me.

 

[andyjeffries]

another for sine wave critics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WaIlVkCWDM&feature=related

Again, thoughts?

My first thought was "what the hell are you breathing like that for?". Man alive, that's some noisy exhalation...

Anyway, still don't like it. It's less pronounced than the previous video (posted by lord-humongous) but still a lot more pronounced than I'd like it ;-)

 

[Earl Weiss]

This is another thing I dislike about Sine Wave, it's some mythical technique that a blue belt should not have enough experience of before you can judge whether it's correct.

I always worry about mythical techniques like this (like Ki generation) where "you haven't been doing it long enough to get it, keep trying for many years and you will.

Out of interest, Earl, at what grade do you think he'd have enough experience to state what is and what is not correct? Probably not a question you've thought of, but I guess there would be a cut off point when you looked at his profile and though "I disagree with him, but he has enough experience to make his own valid opinion".

Not mythical at all. I think that as with many things, if a student (any student) is only exposed to one way of doing things (not limited to sine wave) , virtualy every variation seems "wrong". (as it happens I am well acquainted with his instructor.)

I have experienced this countless times as a student and instructor for countless items and it is one of the first concepts I cover when I do a seminar.

I think the experience function is not about time in grade. I have mentioned this before when it comes to things like length of time training. Is it 10 years of experience or the same experience for 10 years?

Can I put a number on it? No. For instance if you train under 10 instructors all at the same school who all have the same GM since white belt, the experience may be far different that training in several states if you are in the USA plus afew countries and getting different perspectives. It will also be different if you encounter different perspectives as a color belt or as a black belt. As a color belt it may be confusing. As a Black Belt it may be enlightening.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Also, if it improved power like it's supposed to surely other combat sports (such as boxing or MMA) would have also started using it within their techniques?

They do. When they flex their knees while punching, the head rises and falls. That is the same thing.

Bruce Lee describes his one and two inch punch with regard to raising the heel and flexing the knee. Same thing.

 

[Earl Weiss]

this video[/URL] they seem to drop before impact and then be rising up, rather than rising up then down in to the impact.

.

I think that the relative position with the dumy seated and the head being higher than their head made rising up as they punched to reach the head a neccessity.

 

[Earl Weiss]

As another question to you as a sine wave practitioner - do you notice an increase in power between sine wave and non-sine wave? From Master Anslow's document it seems the power difference is negligible (and potentially non-sine wave is more powerful), but I wondered what YOU feel.

Also, say you hit a bag with testing equipment to measure power and it was found to not increase power (hypothetically), would you stop doing it? Is it more important to you that you follow the founder of your kwan's wishes or that you teach your art in a way that's easier for students/most effective?


.

I see flexing the knees which is the characteristic of Sine wave as a way to best employ the entire musculature of the body, including the legs to generate power in hand techniques. I do not see a conceptual difference between how I do this for TKD or how boxing coaches taught me to flex my knees, although TKD uses it for a much wider variety of hand techniques and postures than boxing.

Mr. Anslow and I have agreed to disagree on many things. But where we agree and I think how others agree on this board is that testing is difficult at best. Are results affected by who is simply the better athlete? If the same athlete does it, are results affected by what he is more comfortable with?

As I indicated I see the sine wave in what the one punch knockout video shows and even the knee flexing in the other video notwithstanding the need to reach up and forward for the dummies head.

While the metaphorical term may be uniqe to General Choi, the concept is not.

So, the question is more like if all combat sports found power in hand techniques was greatest if the knees were not flexed and the head kept level, then yes I would have to re think it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

My first thought was "what the hell are you breathing like that for?". Man alive, that's some noisy exhalation...

quote]

One of the reasons patterns are done is to demonstrate to the observer / instructor that the technical parameters are being followed.

Audible breathing while not always required is done to show that the breathing is properly coordinated with the movement whichj is a important element of pattern performance. Particularly on this video which was put out by the ITF as a model 9not neccessarily a perfect one - no specific critique intended Master Norman for performance.

 

[MSUTKD]

“Sine Wave”, why not “Cosine Wave”? This is just a misinterpretation and over-exaggeration of basic physics principles. Basically, I believe, somebody took high school physics and drew some lofty conclusions and thus created dogma. Non-physics people should not try to talk physics.
If it is “real” why don’t other sports use the same principle? Hmmmmmm.

 

[dancingalone]

My first thought was "what the hell are you breathing like that for?". Man alive, that's some noisy exhalation...

That's nothing. :ultracool

[yt]rqRJ4TuiUyA[/yt]

 

[andyjeffries]

Not mythical at all.

Sorry Earl, mythical was the wrong choice of word - I didn't mean any offence by it.

The feeling I was trying to convey was a type of technique where it's not obvious how it works. There's some secret sauce that you can't just try it and it works.

I didn't mean to say that Sine Wave is hocus pocus; I don't personally like it but I'm open to being proved wrong...

I think the experience function is not about time in grade. I have mentioned this before when it comes to things like length of time training. Is it 10 years of experience or the same experience for 10 years?

This is a good point. I was purely basing it off your "you're only X grade, how do you know what is correct" type of statement. At the time (given that you referred to his profile rather than saying that you knew him direct) you seemed to indicate that grade was the only indicator (and following from that an approximate time in the art.

It could be that he'd trained at a few different dojang and learnt from a few different high ranking masters. But you went from his grade so I just wondered if there was a cut-off point where you'd consider them to have done enough training to understand this technique/subtlety.

Can I put a number on it? No. For instance if you train under 10 instructors all at the same school who all have the same GM since white belt, the experience may be far different that training in several states if you are in the USA plus afew countries and getting different perspectives. It will also be different if you encounter different perspectives as a color belt or as a black belt. As a color belt it may be confusing. As a Black Belt it may be enlightening.

OK, fair enough. Thanks for taking the time to post this.

 

[andyjeffries]

They do. When they flex their knees while punching, the head rises and falls. That is the same thing. Bruce Lee describes his one and two inch punch with regard to raising the heel and flexing the knee. Same thing.

But from what I've seen of boxers, they seem to go down then up rather than down up down. That's a key point in my mind as going up with the punch adds to the kinetic linking, coming down would seem not to.

 

[andyjeffries]

I think that the relative position with the dumy seated and the head being higher than their head made rising up as they punched to reach the head a neccessity.

Maybe true... I'll have to try to find some more slow motion punches, maybe UFC punch knockouts (as they tend to slow motion them) might be good...

 

[andyjeffries]

I see flexing the knees which is the characteristic of Sine wave as a way to best employ the entire musculature of the body, including the legs to generate power in hand techniques. I do not see a conceptual difference between how I do this for TKD or how boxing coaches taught me to flex my knees, although TKD uses it for a much wider variety of hand techniques and postures than boxing.

If you were, for now, to go to a boxing gym and do a boxing style punch with a sine wave movement, do you think the boxers would consider it weird or concordant with how they punch?

Mr. Anslow and I have agreed to disagree on many things. But where we agree and I think how others agree on this board is that testing is difficult at best. Are results affected by who is simply the better athlete? If the same athlete does it, are results affected by what he is more comfortable with?

I absolutely agree and have said the same thing. The only way to make this reasonable is a large enough sample and ignore the top and bottom values so the differences in individual athletes average out.

As I indicated I see the sine wave in what the one punch knockout video shows and even the knee flexing in the other video notwithstanding the need to reach up and forward for the dummies head.

Maybe then we actually agree. As I posted earlier, I think the first video in this thread was fine, so if you're considering that a good sine wave demonstration then I don't think we disagree. Some of the other videos over-cook the movement and that is what I don't see in boxing/MMA/Kukki-taekwondo.

While the metaphorical term may be uniqe to General Choi, the concept is not.

So, the question is more like if all combat sports found power in hand techniques was greatest if the knees were not flexed and the head kept level, then yes I would have to re think it.

The key for me though is not about the knees being flexed or head kept level (that min-thread was just a theoretical to see if it was about knee flexion or raising the bodyweight high) - the key is whether the impact happens on a down portion of the movement or up or straight? For Kukki-Taekwondo I'd say straight. For Boxing/MMA I'd say either straight or up. For Sine Wave it seems to be down.

Do you agree with that assessment? Or have I misunderstood the Sine Wave being down-up-down?

 

[andyjeffries]

That's nothing. :ultracool

[yt]rqRJ4TuiUyA[/yt]

:lfao:

I was expecting it and the first time he did it, I thought he was breaking wind! I thought that's why you posted it - because it was funny he farted as an exhalation. Then he kept doing it - that made it funnier!

Thank you!

 

[andyjeffries]

By the way, just wanted to say thank you Earl for starting this thread. As well as seeing lots of examples of Sine Wave and getting to talk to people who do it and like doing it, I'm learning and getting to consider my opinions more fully. Anway, thanks!

 

[dancingalone]

:lfao:

I was expecting it and the first time he did it, I thought he was breaking wind! I thought that's why you posted it - because it was funny he farted as an exhalation. Then he kept doing it - that made it funnier!

Thank you!

You've got to come by my karate class then. You'll die laughing.