For Sine Wave critics

[Earl Weiss]

Watch this vid.

Solo pattern and group pattern at the end.

Does this fall into the category of what you find distateful about sine wave?

 

[andyjeffries]

Watch this vid.

Solo pattern and group pattern at the end.

Does this fall into the category of what you find distateful about sine wave?

I don't find those performances distasteful because of sine wave. For example considering the section from about 3:50 to 4:00, he doesn't seem to be bobbing up and down too much.

At the risk of causing offence, it's demonstrations like this that I find distasteful:

It's far too bouncy and that seems to be what he's advocating (I know he's correcting people to go down, up, down during each movement).

It's the bounciness that I dislike. I wonder if there's anyone out there that really practices both ways equally that could be measured (in an independent scientific way) that determines which has more power. Of course, there's nothing to stop this person putting more power in to their favourite way, so it's hardly an unbiased test.

Maybe it could be done with a sample of people and take the average power, ignoring the extremes.

For my money, the bouncing up and down takes away from the stability of the stance which helps anchor the body/footing to transmit more power through the movement.

 

[andyjeffries]

One article I just found http://www.taekwon-do.ca/kicks/sineWave.html#_Toc35927968 seems to describe the benefit as two fold:

1) it forces you to bend your legs during stepping, keeping your body relaxed for more power generation

2) it uses "gravity to our advantage"

Now, the first one I can see the advantage. However, when I step forward in ap kubi (long stance, front stance) I bend both knees during the step so that my head height remains constant. I do this without bouncing (in fact it looks even less like bouncing than if I'd kept my legs straight) and get the same effect.

Gravity, seriously? A drop of what 6" really adds that much power to the movement. I can understand it if you're dropping/punching in the same direction, but dropping to the ground (as gravity does) while striking forward* surely can't make any discernible difference.

* Here's a question - do you do sine wave with rising/high blocks? If so, do you adjust it so that gravity doesn't work against you (by dropping your weight while trying to lift your arm upward).

 

[andyjeffries]

Sorry for the multiple posts, the more I'm reading about the more I'm finding. In particular, I just found an article by Master Stuart Anslow - http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Patterns_Sinewave.html

In it, he says (summary at the bottom):

Based on the results obtained, there is no evidence to suggest that techniques performed using the sine wave are more powerful than techniques performed without the sine wave. On average, techniques done without the sine wave were found to be 0.16% more powerful than those done with it.

Of course, he only had one student of each style demonstrate and it could just be that one student punched harder. But this paragraph was interesting:

One subject punched harder with one hand using sine wave and harder with the other without it. The other punched harder without sine wave with both hands. On average, the force generated from a reserve punch in walking stance without using the sine wave was 4% higher than the same technique using sine wave.

Has anyone else done any similar testing?

Part of the reason for me asking is that I've heard a lot of people in the past seem to use science to justify sine wave movement, but I've never actually heard anyone quote a scientific paper "proving" it...

 

[dancingalone]

The example posted by Mr. Weiss is much more tolerable than some examples found on Youtube that are held up as good examples of sine wave execution. My only quibble is the robotic rhythm, but I understand that's just how things are preferred - to each his own.

 

[igillman]

0.25% is a very small amount. Unfortunately they do not say what the margin of error is for the tests so we cannot say if the 0.25% is real or an artifact of the testing.

Based upon the type of testing they did I would be more inclined to put the 0.25% difference down to "margin of error".

 

[dancingalone]

Gravity, seriously? A drop of what 6" really adds that much power to the movement. I can understand it if you're dropping/punching in the same direction, but dropping to the ground (as gravity does) while striking forward* surely can't make any discernible difference.

It's not necessarily the gravity that amplifies the strike. You can create a sort of 'spiraling' power from coiling and uncoiling through your back down into the hips and legs. That said my experience in this does not come from ITF TKD doctrine, so I don't pretend to speak for them.

 

[Earl Weiss]

It's not necessarily the gravity who amplifies the strike. You can create a sort of 'spiraling' power from coiling and uncoiling through your back down into the hips and legs. That said my experience in this does not come from ITF TKD doctrine, so I don't pretend to speak for them.

I think you are on the right track. The issue of "coiling and uncoiling through your back down into the hips and legs" can also be found in items on the net referencing "Closed Chain" or "Kinetic Linking."

I think people tend to lose sight of "Sine Wave" being a metaphor to describe the fact that the head does not remain level during the motion but moves up and down (down /up / down) in a smooth motion. It is a metaphor like the term "L" stance is used to describe the position of the feet as being like an L. In fact, for the Chang Hon system it is nbot exactly like an L since the feet are not at 90 degrees.

Sine wave is a product of the knee flexing and raising the heel for stationary techniques. It is not the goal, but what happens when you flex the Knees and / or raise the heel(s).

As for the demo / explanation by General Choi in the video posted, I can only offer that when we teach and slow things down to show how something should be done we often (At least I do) exagerate the motion to make a point.

The reason I posted the video was because it showed GM Park Jung Tae who for many years, up until the 1990s the technical director and teacher of the ITF instructor courses.

So, I submit that what he exhibits is correct as is the group pattern that is shown. Anything more is an exageration.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I wonder if there's anyone out there that really practices both ways equally that could be measured (in an independent scientific way) that determines which has more power. Of course, there's nothing to stop this person putting more power in to their favourite way, so it's hardly an unbiased test.

.

See this video which addresses Kinetic Linking.

As I said above , "Sine Wave" is a metaphorical term. While the term my be unique to General Choi, I think the concept is found in many places. This video is but one example.

 

[andyjeffries]

See this video which addresses Kinetic Linking.

As I said above , "Sine Wave" is a metaphorical term. While the term my be unique to General Choi, I think the concept is found in many places. This video is but one example.

Missing video? Looking forward to seeing it...

 

[andyjeffries]

0.25% is a very small amount. Unfortunately they do not say what the margin of error is for the tests so we cannot say if the 0.25% is real or an artifact of the testing.

Based upon the type of testing they did I would be more inclined to put the 0.25% difference down to "margin of error".

I absolutely agree, I wasn't saying it was a conclusive study. I just thought it was interesting that it obviously didn't come out on the side of an obvious benefit.

I hope someone has done a more serious/academic study...

 

[andyjeffries]

I think you are on the right track. The issue of "coiling and uncoiling through your back down into the hips and legs" can also be found in items on the net referencing "Closed Chain" or "Kinetic Linking."

You mention a video on this, I'm looking forward to watching it - I think that will be very interesting!

I think people tend to lose sight of "Sine Wave" being a metaphor to describe the fact that the head does not remain level during the motion but moves up and down (down /up / down) in a smooth motion. It is a metaphor like the term "L" stance is used to describe the position of the feet as being like an L. In fact, for the Chang Hon system it is nbot exactly like an L since the feet are not at 90 degrees

OK, let me ask in another way then - do you/can you perform sine wave techniques keeping the head level? Can you generate the same power doing it this way that you feel you can generate going obviously up and down through "Closed Chain" or "Kinetic Linking".

As for the demo / explanation by General Choi in the video posted, I can only offer that when we teach and slow things down to show how something should be done we often (At least I do) exagerate the motion to make a point.

I agree, but unfortunately some people seem to actually do it that way (maybe copying this over-exaggerated motion). It's that huge movement that I personally dislike.

The reason I posted the video was because it showed GM Park Jung Tae who for many years, up until the 1990s the technical director and teacher of the ITF instructor courses. So, I submit that what he exhibits is correct as is the group pattern that is shown. Anything more is an exageration.

As I said, it's not how I'd personally do it, but it does demonstrate doing it so much that it wouldn't irritate me watching it. If I saw a Kukki-Taekwondo performing poomsae using the over-exaggerated sine wave I've mentioned above, I would barely be able to contain myself from yelling!

 

[puunui]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vu6nvW5jE4


I watched the entire video. I couldn't see any noticeable sine wave in any of it. The group performance, were those in the back really white belts? It didn't seem like it to me. What I did notice in the performance in the beginning was due more to my own prejudices I think, not understanding the technical subtleties of the ITF. For one thing, I was always taught, in both Shotokan and Taekwondo, to not let your arms and legs visibly "shake" during form execution. Also there was consistent slight loss of balance which would be a deduction if I were judging forms. The rhythm of the form demonstrated in the beginning also did not feel smooth for some reason. I also for whatever reason don't like that bent wrist position in ready stance. I was always taught to keep your wrist straight and aligned with your forearm. I think it is more my problem than anything else, but that is some of the things going on in my mind when watching the video.

 

[Lord-Humongous]

Yep, I agree with Punni. That's a non sine wave video. Watch this for correct application of sine wave:

We do sine wave at my school and it should be quite obvious when done correctly. I am not going to step into the argument of whether or not it actually increases power as I don't concern myself with this debate. The fact is that 99% of patterns are a demonstration of the art aspect of martial arts in my opinion.

 

[puunui]

I have to say I don't like that. I also don't like what he does with his hands in between the arm movements.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Yep, I agree with Punni. That's a non sine wave video. Watch this for correct application of sine wave:

We do sine wave at my school and it should be quite obvious when done correctly. I am not going to step into the argument of whether or not it actually increases power as I don't concern myself with this debate. The fact is that 99% of patterns are a demonstration of the art aspect of martial arts in my opinion.

Are you acquanted with Sr. Master Phap Lu in the video? I see you are from Canada.

I would be one of the last to critiques Sr. Master Phap Lu. However, I will still take GM Park Jung Tae's performance as "Correct' over his. But that's just me. I would submit that if your profile as a Blue Belt is correct you need a wider range of experience before you can state what is, and what is not "correct' sine wave.

 

[Earl Weiss]

OOPS. sorry see:
http://www.break.com/index/anatomy-of-a-one-punch-knock-out.html

Kinetic linking part starts t about 1:10

 

[Earl Weiss]

OK, let me ask in another way then - do you/can you perform sine wave techniques keeping the head level? Can you generate the same power doing it this way that you feel you can generate going obviously up and down through "Closed Chain" or "Kinetic Linking".



I agree, but unfortunately some people seem to actually do it that way (maybe copying this over-exaggerated motion). It's that huge movement that I personally dislike.

The issue of copying an exageration or the "If some is good more is better" Idea is a problem. The same thing happened with hip twist and I think one of the videos captures General Choi critiquing someone for the exagerated hip twist.

Can you do the sine wave technique keeping the head level? No, then you would not have the up and down motion. Could you try to get the same effect by keeping the head level while flexing the knees? Perhaps, but why? I view it the same as boxers who flex their knees when they punch, there is a slight up and down motion.

 

[Earl Weiss]

another for sine wave critics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WaIlVkCWDM&feature=related

Again, thoughts?

 

[Lord-Humongous]

I would submit that if your profile as a Blue Belt is correct you need a wider range of experience before you can state what is, and what is not "correct' sine wave.

Point noted. I am a red stripe & I have only been exposed to the way we do sine wave at my school.