The art is not cheapened and I am not disrespected. Even if you just gave some 2 year old a belt would not offend me in any way. I could care less. That belt means something entirely different to me than them.I'd like to thank the father for cheapening the arts and disrespecting black belts (real ones) everywhere.
I was going to bet on TKD, but I don't know:
It was written KoInChi or KoinChi in other sources. This article also makes it sounds like it is indeed Japanese karate:
The art is not cheapened and I am not disrespected. Even if you just gave some 2 year old a belt would not offend me in any way. I could care less. That belt means something entirely different to me than them.
Just because I give someone a black belt does not mean that they have the same meaning of it that I have. So whoever gave her hers simply has a different meaning of the belt than you or I. Maybe she was able to wash the dishes at home by herself so he said you deserve a black belt. Oh well. Not why I would give it to her but he did. So she is only a black belt to those who have the exact same standard as the person that gave it to her. That is all.
Don't feel bad for yourself or the art because someone gave her a belt. The art is something different to each and always has been and always will be.
I think that the arts themselves create what you speak about. Knowing the arts are suppose to make you know how to handle yourself or fight in most peoples eyes so it is only natural that some idiots will challenge you. Regardless if a 5 year old holds a black belt or not.People like that also cause me to have to "prove" myself more than I'd like.
I don't advertise what I do in my spare time; however, there have been occasions where people have said, "Oh...you're a black belt in krotty? Well...what would you do if I did this!" and then swung at me.
Neither I nor the poor idiot that swung at me appreciate the image this kind of crap creates. The popular view of "krotty" these days is that it's glorified day-care and a joke. People make fun of it and don't respect it because they have what I call the "Power Ranger Mentality."
McDojo's only contribute to this stigma; especially when they strap a black belt onto a 5 year old.
Ha ha ha...I get you and understand what you are saying but just because they require something does not mean that they apply they same standards to it that you do. They may even relax their own standards for the sake of age, mental developement or any reason. I think most schools do require some sort of written essay but the standards differ making the point almost moot.I require written tests as part of rank advancement. A five year old couldn't spell half the words much less understand their meaning... so that rules out any 5 year old black belts in my lineage.
Most American Kenpo schools require a thesis paper as part of attaining a black belt... do you think a 5 year old could write a comprehensive paper on a particular concept of martial arts?
Perhaps some other schools/styles/systems that don't do this sort of thing as part of testing should. That way, we'd have less toddler black belts running around and perhaps regain some legitamacy and respect.
...and coloring books don't count as a written test.
I don't even think that Jet Li and Ernie Reyes Jr at those ages could defend themselves againt a grown adult.This gives a child a false sense they could actually defend themselves at that age.
The ONLY two people I every saw as a kid who deserved these accolades were Jet Li at age 11 and Ernie Reyes Jr at age 8.
I do not even want to contemplate what it says about her training if she could not evade, block, or somehow defend against someone running at her and throwing a body punch.I remember being in class as a color belt and had to spar a 3 Dan girl. She was 20 or so and was really really good. She beat me every which way until I said forget this Matial Arts stuff I am just going to hit her, and I did. I did not try to make it look pretty and I did not try to do any techniques I was taught. I just ran at her and punched her in the chest as hard as I could. She quit...well she balled up on the floor and just laid there. The same would have happen to Jet and Ernie at those ages, so why do they deserve their belts anymore than anyone else?
This was a while back and not a sports school at all. We would spar with only the foam feet and hands. Shin guards if you wanted them, and head gear. It was more like kick boxing of old that we were doing. I did not just throw one punch but pretty much bum rushed her and had her backing up. When I did land the punch it was with bad intentions as i was a teenaged boy being embarrased. I would say I was 18 maybe 19. I had just gotten back into the MA after some time off.I do not even want to contemplate what it says about her training if she could not evade, block, or somehow defend against someone running at her and throwing a body punch.
And let us look at this illustration. A third dan and twenty. That means that she was no older than eighteen at second and no older than seventeen at first.
I say no older, because unless she had just become third dan, she likely earned these ranks at younger ages. Ninebird's post stated at the outset that nobody under 18 should get a BB and mentioned two exceptions.
Without commenting on the exceptions except that there are some, there is merit to making 18 the benchmark, rather than 15...or five. If I were to have been a white belt watching a colored belt do that to an adult third dan (20 qualifies as adult) in the same school where I trained, I would have had a very hard time taking the training seriously and likely would have found another school. And how old were you at the time? If you were less than fifteen and took her down like that, I would really have made tracks to another school.
You said that she was really good. Define really good.
Good at forms? Good at sparring WTF style? Good at punching the air? Good at breaking boards? Whatever she was good at, defending against punches, charging opponents, and taking a hit were not on the list, and by third dan, they darned well should have been.
I also notice that you said, "She beat me every which way until I said forget this Matial Arts stuff I am just going to hit her, and I did. I did not try to make it look pretty and I did not try to do any techniques I was taught. I just ran at her and punched her in the chest as hard as I could."
I am sorry, but by third dan, I would really hope that she had been taught to defend against someone doing just that.
This is one of my biggest issues with many schools. They act as though sport technique is the equal of self defense. Had you not been another TKD student, you would not have given her the opportunity to "beat you every which way"; you would have just run up and punched her in the chest and been done with it.
It is not clear if she was a fellow student or a student from another school, but if you both had the same teacher, that should have been a huge red flag. Either the training at the school where she was taught produces students that cannot defend themselves outside of the dojo or the owner promotes people who cannot defend themselves. Either way, that does not reflect well on the school where she trained.
First off I would like to say Congrats to your daughter and wish her luck in her training as well.What she should have been able to do as a 3rd Dan is anticipate, at that grade one should have had a huge amount of experience sparring against all sorts of people so she should have been able to see how your body language, posture etc had changed and to expect something. she should have outthought and outflanked you but of course she shouldn't have been that grade at that age! Age and experience will outdo youth and strength because for one thing you get sneakier and slyer as you get older to compensate for losing strength and speed.
ATC I've seen my mate Rosi drop a guy your size lol! He wasn't amused I have to say though. My daughter who is smaller than Rosi ducked under a big guy throwing a punch and took him down with a duck under valley drop, another unhappy guy taken by guile. My daughter is training with Rosi this weekend so goodness knows what she'll come back with!
First off I would like to say Congrats to your daughter and wish her luck in her training as well.
No about your statement. Yes there are always going to be some exceptions but the norm will always be the norm. If things are kept in context then I'd say the field is level. But once you step outside the guide lines then things tend to tilt towards a more natural conclusion. If I had stayed trying to match her with the limited techniques I had at the time I would not have even touched her.
This happens all the time in real life too. I have seen street fights start off with two guys trying to box each other. One guy is far better at this than the other so the guy that is getting a bloody nose from all the jabs he is taking decides to shoot for the legs or run in an tackle the boxer because in that context he cannot match or even come close to matching his opponent. I see this all the time.
I only mentioned this happening of mine to counter that fact that no matter how skilled an 8 year old prodigy he is no match for any full grown man. I used my own experience with an adult woman and a teenage boy.
It is easy to say that they could side step or parry ones attack, but for how long. You can only run for so long. In any sport match or street fight you will get hit. Now it is can you take that hit and keep hitting back that matters most.
Yes I get your point but I still have to say maybe. We have a couple older guys that just recently tested for 2nd Dan and had to perform SD techniques during their testing. Guess who gets to play the bad guy all the timeCheers, my daughter has her first amateur MMA fight in December should be fun, she's a jockey and as strong as hell lol! she's 24 and been in martial arts since she was 8, she hasn't graded however beyond 7th kyu. She's not interested in grading in anything.
The thing I was trying to get across was that being such a young 3rd Dan she had no experience an older 3rd Dan would have had to escape you. There's a fair bit she could have done to avoid being dumped on the floor or even if she was, getting up and fighting back. At such a young age and at such a relatively high grade there simply isn't the experience, strength and ability there.
Come at me like that and I will take you down, I'm not going to stand and trade punches with a guy, I will take down and hurt in that situation. You need flexibilty of mind which comes with experience not giving BB to children.
Yes I get your point but I still have to say maybe. We have a couple older guys that just recently tested for 2nd Dan and had to perform SD techniques during their testing. Guess who gets to play the bad guy all the time? Yep, me. Well these guys are a bit older in their mid to late 20's and I can tell you they all failed this part. I pretty much man handled them both as would happen in the street and they pretty much did not have the strength to get out of simple holds. One did elbow my ribs pretty good, but it was not enough to make me break my grip and he found himself going to sleep.
I know what you are saying and yes it could be a factor but it could also just as easily not be a factor as well. I think it is up to the individual. We can all say what we will do but when faced with it in real time we can only hope it all pays off. Like I said it only takes one good punch and no one can move or block everything all the time. Sometimes you have to be able to take or with stand an onslaught first. Like I always tell my students; I can take the first one, but can you (refering to my students that is).
Hope you daughter does well. Be proud Mom!!! I think I like watching my kids, win or lose more than me doing it myself anymore.