Church says girl's communion not valid

[MA-Caver]

I'm probably gonna stick my foot in my mouth again here... but I've become accustomed to the taste... yick!

But I believe the original bread used at the "Last Supper" was unleavened bread (without yeast) as perscribed by traditonal Jewish Passover meals, or simply flour and water mixed and then baked... no mentioned of it being rye, wheat, or even pumperninkle.

Agreed the whole thing is just too stoopid to even think about. Of the Catholic friends that I have, I'm sure they'd agree. It's got to be just a small section of the church and not the whole that is being this asinine.

The link showed a nice picture of this happy (and innocent) little girl in her first communion gown and such a cutie. It's soooo... :angry:

 

[Taimishu]

I am totally non-religous and this is one of the reasons why.

I hope that when she is old enough to choose her religon this little girl looks long and hard at the catholic church and tells them to take a hike.
There are other religons out there and all of them have the same chance of being the religon for her as the catholic faith has.

David

 

[oldnewbie]

Argghh, everyone has already said what I wanted to rant about......


Is sad when the "Symbols" are worshipped more that the "Deity"... oh wait a minute.. that's a sin isn't it???

 

[JPR]

I'm probably gonna stick my foot in my mouth again here... but I've become accustomed to the taste... yick!

But I believe the original bread used at the "Last Supper" was unleavened bread (without yeast) as perscribed by traditonal Jewish Passover meals, or simply flour and water mixed and then baked... no mentioned of it being rye, wheat, or even pumperninkle.

Agreed the whole thing is just too stoopid to even think about. Of the Catholic friends that I have, I'm sure they'd agree. It's got to be just a small section of the church and not the whole that is being this asinine.

The link showed a nice picture of this happy (and innocent) little girl in her first communion gown and such a cutie. It's soooo... :angry:

You are correct about the use of unleavened bread in the Last Supper. As to the grain used, it would probably follow along the lines of what can be used for Matzah which are wheat, barley, rye, oats and spelt according to what I have read.

In Mark (chapter 7), Jesus takes the pharisees to task because they placed traditions ahead of God. If the shoe fits...

FYI
JPR

 

[Flatlander]

This is not directed at anyone in particular, however as a reminder, let's not use this thread as an outlet to bash the Catholic faith. I do not believe that was the intent of the original post, and too many will find that to be an offensive activity.


Thank you!

Dan

 

[Taimishu]

On reading the article it seems that the same applies to alcohol.

The church has similar rules for Communion wine. For alcoholics, the church allows a substitute for wine under some circumstances, however the drink must still be fermented from grapes and contain some alcohol. Grape juice is not a valid substitute

I definately think it is time the catholic church looked at it self and looked at the people it tries to attract and asks its self if doctrine is more important than people, and if empty churches are good for the faith.

David

 

[Cruentus]

I It's a freakin' symbol, for cryin' out loud, for the body of the Christ - or, as Paul stated, the transubstanation of Christ. What, we're not actually imbibing in plasma or consuming human flesh, here - we are SYMBOLICALLY partaking of bread (body) and wine (blood) to keep the covenant of rememberance of Him.

Peace.

Just wanted to make a correction on this. Other faiths believe in the bread in wine as a symbol of Christs body/blood, but Catholics and Orthodox believe that it is ACTUALLY Christs body and blood that we are eating, but that it only appears to be bread and wine, hence the word "Transubstanation." The best scriptural reference is John 6 (read all of it so you have the reference): http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john6.htm The summerized version is Jesus has a bunch of followers outside of the 12 who had witnessed his good works and such, but then Jesus says, "Amen, Amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you."[Jn 6:53] Everyone was like WTF? So..."As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him."[Jn 6:66] The original 12 stayed, and the rest is history. The arguement behind this doctrine is that Jesus didn't stop the "many" of his disciples who said "Datz screwed up, I'm not going to eat someones flesh!" and left. He didn't say, "wait, don't go, I ment eat my flesh symbolically....come back!" So, the belief is that at the communion, we ACTUALLY are eating flesh and drinking blood. This is one of the "great mysteries" of Catholic faith...this idea of transubstanation.

Now, other denominations have different beliefs on this, so please keep in mind that I am not posting this so that we can argue over whether or not that interpretation of scripture is right or wrong. I am only stating this so you all have a point of reference on what the Catholic belief is on the Eucharist, or Communion. Realizing this, because the idea of Eucharist is beyond "just a symbol," this is pretty serious biznatch in Catholicism, hence why I really feel for this little girl.

Now, this all being said, yes, the Eucharist is very important...basically the belief IS that it is the ultamite acceptance of Christ, and therefore IS nessicary to get into heaven. However...that is also another "mystery" of the Catholic faith. Catholics DO NOT believe that just because someone doesn't or can't recieve the Eucharist on earth that they are going to hell. Just like Catholics do not know how transubstanation "works" but believe its true, we don't profess to know how this "works" either. In other words, one could be an aethiest on earth but lived a good life, die, go to purgatory or something to learn more about what's what, recieve the Eucharist on that different plane of existance, then go to heaven. This little girl could never recieve the Eucharist on earth (although I believe that she has), die, and recieve it at the gates upon entering. I mention this because it is important to note that NO ONE knows who is going to hell or heaven but God, and this is Catholic doctrine, so NO ONE would have the right to tell this girl or you or anyone that they are "going to hell."

Now, back to the subject at hand, there is no good historical, scriptural, or traditional reference to the idea that "The bread must be made of wheat!" prior to Thomas Aquinas, who lived from 1225-1274....1,200 years after Christ!?!? Like I said, this wasn't put forth as "Doctrine," but this tradition made its way into the rulebook, and bingo-bango, now this tradition is a rule that some church authority figures can't step outside of the idiot rulebook to recognize how/why it's there. If they would look at things from a logical perspective, even within their own doctrine and beliefs they would see that allowing bread not made of wheat into the mix jeoprodizes nothing.

On a final note....don't give me this piffle that "This is Da reason why Catholics suck" or "Dis is why I'm not religious" because similar, dumb, and often times far worse mistakes happened in every religion. When you deal with the metaphysical...stuff that we cannot prove or see with our worldly senses, added to the error of human beings, things are bound to get screwy. It just so happens when that the bigger the church (and the Catholic Church is the largest Christian Church), the bigger the target and the more media attention it recieves. I like the Catholic Church because of the wealth of knowledge that is contained within the faith. Virtually every Christian Church out there relies on the Catholics because they are the ones who have maintained historical artifacts and records going back as far back as one could go...so the wealth of knowledge and Scholarly study that has gone into the beliefs is second to none in my opinion. However, the misinterpretation of rules, and the mistakes by the Human beings within the church are what makes it hard to accept. I try not to take that stuff too seriously, and I keep an open mind, and I keep in mind that even as a Catholic, my religion belongs to ME not a hierarchy of men, and my relationship with God is MINE and no one elses. That, coupled with the open-mindedness to discover "truths" in other religions and ways of thought all help me cope with the nonsense. Example is lately I have been searching and discovering more and more about "Tribal" cultures and beliefs and ways of thought...particularly native american. Why? Because I feel that aspects of western culture are flawed, so I like another perspective thrown into the mix. Did someone mention that "Pagan" religions and "Catholicism" has a lot of similarities? I'll tell you right now that is true more then you realize...and guess what, that's just fine with me. It just reinfoces my belief that Truth can be found in many places, and that there are many roads to a destination.

Sorry for the rant....on a final note:

This is not directed at anyone in particular, however as a reminder, let's not use this thread as an outlet to bash the Catholic faith. I do not believe that was the intent of the original post, and too many will find that to be an offensive activity.

Thanks Flatlander, and thanks all of you. You guys have kept it pretty well behaved, which I know is difficult given the circumstance. Not all Catholics, nor is the faith itself supposed to be, as dumb as this story represents. Thanks for keeping it on the topic rather then a slam-fest on the Catholic religion.

Yours,

Paul

 

[Taimishu]

Paul, good post thanks

David

 

[Flatlander]

Great post Paul, good insights. One of those extremely rare Tulisan Long Posts.

 

[bluenosekenpo]

hhmmmm, lets hope i don't offend anyone, i won't trivialize what the girl (and family) are going through, but this is nothing new, entrenched, dogmatic fanaticism rears its' ugly head in many different ways, not just in religion.

if you reread that article and took out the religious references, why, by golly it sounds like an article about the sate of martial arts. now, i'm not trying to be insensitive but i personally feel people have relied way too long on others(priests,guros,senseiis,presidents,etc.) to solve problems that they can remedy themselves. in this case? petition the pope, change the church, make it the jkd of christianity. look after yourself, your loved ones and your neighbours. just for the record, i'm a capitalist and christian. i step down from the pulpit.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

So do I understand you to mean that the girl and her family should not at all raise an issue about this?

 

[MA-Caver]

This is not directed at anyone in particular, however as a reminder, let's not use this thread as an outlet to bash the Catholic faith. I do not believe that was the intent of the original post, and too many will find that to be an offensive activity.

Thank you!

Dan

Dan, I was going to give you a rep point for this post but I gotta spread it around some more before I can add to your pot again...sigh...
But I definitely am in total agreement with you.
While this clearly upsets a good deal of us for it's stupidity and whatever adjectives we want to use (but can't because of the family rated forum this is) we definitely should not be bashing the Catholic faith as a whole.
It is probably that particular diocise/branch/whatever that is being this asinine over this little girl's wheat intolerance and not the church itself.
Hopefully appeals will reach the Pope and that he will do something positive (John Paul will be sorely missed when he's gone :waah: ) do something positive about this affair.

JPR Thank you for your good point on Mark chap. 7

Tulisan... great post... yeah a bit long winded for you but civil... :asian:

Which is the way that discussions along these lines should be... kudos thus far to everyone. :asian:

 

[loki09789]

hhmmmm, lets hope i don't offend anyone, i won't trivialize what the girl (and family) are going through, but this is nothing new, entrenched, dogmatic fanaticism rears its' ugly head in many different ways, not just in religion.

if you reread that article and took out the religious references, why, by golly it sounds like an article about the sate of martial arts. now, i'm not trying to be insensitive but i personally feel people have relied way too long on others(priests,guros,senseiis,presidents,etc.) to solve problems that they can remedy themselves. in this case? petition the pope, change the church, make it the jkd of christianity. look after yourself, your loved ones and your neighbours. just for the record, i'm a capitalist and christian. i step down from the pulpit.

Nice point Bluenose. The point is that there are 'laws' that govern any group whether religious or other. Use the word "tradition" instead of "dogma" or the term "Original" as another substitute and you can end up with the same problem. That problem is the people who cling to a rule at the expense of the members instead of listening to the spirit of the 'rules' that are in place.

I am sure that the family would be able to talk to someone higher in the Local Diocese order who would know of a stipulation for this type of circumstance. Come on, even as a Catholic ANYONE of Christian faith can Baptise someone and have it recognized by the Church (with proper witnessing and documentation - I had to go through it because I was Baptised in a Baptist Church) so I imagine that this very narrow interpretation can be worked with/around.

For all those who want to use this and other discussions to throw the baby out with the bath water about Religion...I have seen these same judgemental, negative, anti-establishment rants about the military, government, education.....if it is such a problem for you lead, follow or get out of the way.

Religion/Philosophy/Theology are, at their roots, about building a community around a set of ideals - whether Christian/Catholic or other religions - or even family, political or other 'group' making. I don't see people using any one problem with the USA or other countries to become Ex-Patriots so you must be capable of HOPE and FAITH that the ideals are stronger than the INDIVIDUALS (no matter how numerous or few) that fall short of them. I am sure you could point to members of your Martial arts system/school, your family, your school district/town/country and say "That's it, I quit. You suck" and judge everyone and everything about it based on that, but you don't.

Please don't do it about this. It is bigotous and, IMO, a poor reflection of the respect for another 'culture' that we as Martial artists express regularly when we claim ownership of our chosen system. If you can see the nobility and positive side of the Oriental cultures in spite of all the negativity, please try to recognize/Respect what good has been done through religion as well.

 

[Makalakumu]

Is something like this going to lead to people being denied communion for other things? How about supporting abortion? Or birth control? Or the war in Iraq?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hmmmm, Religion, and how the person or people seem to try to pigeon whole or box people into the picture they have of how it should be. And yes, his can be applied to all walks of life.

Yet, I have to ask myself, maybe the Catholic church does not beleive in food allergies? I do not know?

Maybe it is an issue of faith:

Where some believe since it truly is not wheat, but the body of Christ, then the child will not have a reaction.

Or is it a greater faith that God and or Christ will watch over the child and inhibit a reaction or allergy?

I do not proclaim to know the minds of those who made the judgement. Nor to I wish to judge them for I am not a peer to them. I will state my opinion that I beleive they are silly little children who are acting out and want things their way or else theyare going to make everyone around them pay for it.

So, Paul and other Catholics, is it possible to give the Catholic church a time out? send them to their room? or even Spank them? For in my opinion this and other acts, are childish.

As a religion, guide those who seek out your counsel, give a sense of community that may not be available otherwise in a society, provide a sense of belonging to a greater whole, with the understanding that I as an individual may decide not to follow your path nor promote your system of actions.

Peace
:asian:

 

[Kacey]

I found this article as well: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0304communion0304.html

It is about an autistic boy being denied Communion (after recieving it for several years) because his disability prevents him from swallowing certain textures. According to the article, they have tried very small portions of wafer and wine, but he cannot swallow them.

Not being Catholic (or even Christian) I know that I am probably missing some of the finer points here - but I would appreciate it if someone can explain to me why the spiritual giving of Communion is being lost in the child's physical disability - especially given his emotional upset when he was denied it.

 

[BrandiJo]

Gods love and salvation extend to all, not just those that can eat teh right bread and drink the right drink. I think its shameful that cathlocs are doing this.

 

[SAVAGE]

Well....catholics do have a bad rep here!

First of all I am a catholic..and am quite steadfast in my faith! Even i am appalled by this story! God loves children...Jesus loves children! but first I would like to adress a few things!

Gods love and salvation extend to all, not just those that can eat teh right bread and drink the right drink. I think its shameful that cathlocs are doing this.

The rules are the rules...maybe it is Gods Plan that this girl is the one who changes the law! You need to have faith that this happens for a purpose! The church is not perfect and it will take time to change the laws...but it may happen!

Maybe it is an issue of faith:

Where some believe since it truly is not wheat, but the body of Christ, then the child will not have a reaction.

Or is it a greater faith that God and or Christ will watch over the child and inhibit a reaction or allergy?

This may be the case..nothing happens without gods say so...we need to look at this through the eyes of faith...if Jesus could walk on water, heal the sick and blind on faith..he can and will save this girl from alergies!

It is a matter of faith!

Is something like this going to lead to people being denied communion for other things? How about supporting abortion? Or birth control?

Yes a catholic should never support these two things! IOt should lead to them being asked to leave alltogether!

I definately think it is time the catholic church looked at it self and looked at the people it tries to attract and asks its self if doctrine is more important than people, and if empty churches are good for the faith.

DOCTRINE is the basis of religion...rules are rules...for people to follow a faith they must accept the doctrine and rules of the church.

try walking into your dojo and breaking a rule...like spit on the tatami mat and see where that gets you! Rules are rules!

Is sad when the "Symbols" are worshipped more that the "Deity"... oh wait a minute.. that's a sin isn't it???

Yeah...so is judging others!

The symbol you are talking about IS the flesh and blood of christ...tell em where in the bible it says that it is a sin to hold christ sacred and worship him! We are not talking about bread...it transforms into the body of the messiah!

It's a freakin' symbol, for cryin' out loud, for the body of the Christ - or, as Paul stated, the transubstanation of Christ. What, we're not actually imbibing in plasma or consuming human flesh, here - we are SYMBOLICALLY partaking of bread (body) and wine (blood) to keep the covenant of rememberance of Him.

Sorry...for a catholic..it is NOT asymbol of the body..it IS the body of the lord!

I'm no catholic,

That is pretty evident!

I think I'm more Buddhist than anything, but I don't really believe in organized religion.


[/QUOTE=Shesula]

Bhuddism is not a organised religion...please!

The girl should consider it is a blessing that she doesn't get to be a part of a church that puts women as 2nd class citizens...

On a technical note, I was not aware that the body of Christ was made of wheat...?

Oh well, pagan traditions and materialistic views of the spiritual world seem to be the flavour of the religion

Wow...why are women second class citizens....perhaps you arent paying attention to the millions upon millions of hail maries said..and the important role she plays in the faith...is this about us not having female priests..well you need to take it up with Jesus...he must have been a sexist with no female disciples....hogwash!

The body of christ is not made up of whet..and the bread turns to the body of christ therefore it is not wheat but flesh...it is a matter of faith!

We are pagans...yet all churches stem from us...hahaha...Jesus founded the church upon Simon Peter the rock...and Peter the rock founded catholisism..so once again take it up with God! This statement is offensive!

can't she get out of this by confession? Like with everthing catholics get out of?

you sir have no idea what you are talking about...get some education on the subject before you open your mouth!


People the church is not perfect..but it can change..it just isnt going to happen overnight! Alot of uninformedopinions were expressed here..and the alterboy joke..well its abit old...you cannot blame the church for the actions of a few..or it amounts to you saying I am a child molestor because I am catholic and if this is the case I will seek legal advice on this! Defamation is an ugly thing!

I hope that the church does its best to rectify this...I wish that mother (who still has faith in the church) and her daughter all the best and I know his holiness will do the right thing by the word of god and her family!

 

[BrandiJo]

if her taking it and having faith she will be healed then why is her faith not enough that she can have a substute...why cant the rice waver be transferd in to Chirsts body just as easly as the wheat one?

 

[Jonathan Randall]

DOCTRINE is the basis of religion...rules are rules...for people to follow a faith they must accept the doctrine and rules of the church.

try walking into your dojo and breaking a rule...like spit on the tatami mat and see where that gets you! Rules are rules!

I was under the impression that Christ chided the Pharisees for their blind and empty adherence to religious rules over faith, compassion, and love of God?

That's exactly what Jesus did in the Gospels! Got killed for it, too.

Maybe he needs to come back and cleanse the temple again.