Faye (Li) Yip's Bow stance is wrong?

[Wing Woo Gar39]

Double post.

 

[Marsha Larts]

It’s you in relationship to you, and you in relationship to the earth. Gravity is the first force we can feel. You can put yourself in alignment with this in mind. The posture itself is of less consequence than the transitions between. In the two person form, some of these ideas become more evident when contact is made, feeling how your alignment affects or is affected by the other person. Application, or rather the concepts of application inform the alignment to some degree. Prior experiences in other external arts can hinder or help this experience depending on the individual practice and understanding of the instructor.

Thanks. That kind of addresses the questions I asked, but it skirts the central issue of there being an application based on the creation or happenstance of contact being made between the principals involved in whatever type of interaction is being engaged.

IOW, the examples of postures I listed, and their respective movement sequences which would include their transitional movement, are supposed to be representative of the martial application of energy, contact, impact or whatever, be it a throw, punch, lock or some other 'control' of the opponent. For instance, Brush Knee Twist Step has been demonstrated by various practitioners as a cross punch, a push, a tai otoshi type throw, or a drag.

I guess what I'm asking about is how the external harmonies are arranged in the example of Brush Knee Twist Step? It's easy to just say hands-feet, elbows-knees, shoulders-hips, but which hand is matching which foot? Which elbow is matching which knee? Which shoulder is matching which hip?

Are the arrangements of the external harmonies congruent in application with that which is practiced solo?

 

[Marsha Larts]

. Wei Shuren, writings on taiji...​

This might help in understand how they come into play and why it's a different idea in use..

This image shows a classic Taiji concept: your body and intent form what might be called a dynamic sphere.

Yi (intent) focuses on a point — usually your opponent’s center.

Qi flows in arcs: it draws back through your spine and spreads outward through your arms and structure.

Relax your chest and spine; power cycles through you rather than being forced by muscle.

Depending on ones development, the opponent might feel like they’re pushing into a ball — nowhere to “get in.”

Instead of chasing alignment like a pose, this is about dynamic connection and recycling energy.
The Six Harmonies support this idea: every part of your body and mind links to a single point in space.

Thanks for that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

but which hand is matching which foot? Which elbow is matching which knee? Which shoulder is matching which hip?

If we only talk about hand strike and foot kick without talking about elbow strike, knee strike, shoulder strike, and hip strike, we can simplify 3 external harmonies into just "hand coordinate with foot". A hand (or both hands) can coordinate with either foot (or both feet).

For example, Taiji brush knee twist step can be considered as both hands coordinate with both feet. The right hand, left hand, right leg, left leg all start at the same time, and also stop at the same time. IMO, it's easier to see that arms and legs are 4 independent springs that are compressed at the same time and then release at the same time.

 

[windwalker099105]

Are the arrangements of the external harmonies congruent in application with that which is practiced solo?

Not exactly — they’re the same in principle but don’t always look the same. In real use, they adapt.

In solo practice, the external harmonies (hands-feet, elbows-knees, shoulders-hips) are trained with clear structure to build precision and connection. Without resistance, everything looks neat and symmetrical. In application, those harmonies adjust with timing, distance, and an opponent’s movement.

The arrows in the diagram show the flow of Yi (intent) and Qi, not literal movement. The goal is to keep that internal link no matter how your body shifts. Postures are training tools, not the goal.

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

Not exactly — they’re the same in principle but don’t always look the same. In real use, they adapt.

In solo practice, the external harmonies (hands-feet, elbows-knees, shoulders-hips) are trained with clear structure to build precision and connection. Without resistance, everything looks neat and symmetrical. In application, those harmonies adjust with timing, distance, and an opponent’s movement.

The arrows in the diagram show the flow of Yi (intent) and Qi, not literal movement. The goal is to keep that internal link no matter how your body shifts. Postures are training tools, not the goal.

When I look at a picture that only has 1 person in it, I start to wonder "Are we talking about MA? Should MA always involve with more than 1 person?"

I have always taught "partner drill" first. I told all my students that "partner drill" without partner will be the "solo training".

What's the usage that if you have good 6 harmonies training but your punch cannot land on your opponent's face?

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

Thanks. That kind of addresses the questions I asked, but it skirts the central issue of there being an application based on the creation or happenstance of contact being made between the principals involved in whatever type of interaction is being engaged.

IOW, the examples of postures I listed, and their respective movement sequences which would include their transitional movement, are supposed to be representative of the martial application of energy, contact, impact or whatever, be it a throw, punch, lock or some other 'control' of the opponent. For instance, Brush Knee Twist Step has been demonstrated by various practitioners as a cross punch, a push, a tai otoshi type throw, or a drag.

I guess what I'm asking about is how the external harmonies are arranged in the example of Brush Knee Twist Step? It's easy to just say hands-feet, elbows-knees, shoulders-hips, but which hand is matching which foot? Which elbow is matching which knee? Which shoulder is matching which hip?

Are the arrangements of the external harmonies congruent in application with that which is practiced solo?

Others may have other ways. Sometimes terminology helps, other times it hinders. Let me qualify my statements before I make them. In my personal practice, the form will reflect what I’m working on that day. I use the solo form to hone and re examine my movement. The way I privately do the form is not the way I teach the form. I find that eye focus is a useful tool when learning the form. Eyes follow the hand with more elevation, relatively speaking. The place on the hand that the eye rests depends on the posture. The weight changes will often inform alignment. Having a strong sense of cardinal directions at all times likewise is a useful learning tool. You used brush knee push palm as example, in this posture, the eye will follow the fourth knuckle on the back of the upper hand, one arm will be parallel with one leg and the same amount of angle in both knee and elbow, also wrist and ankle have same amount of “bend” without tension, this is not always the case during application. The applications are often hidden. For instance, the two man form is shown and taught one way, but the applications of each posture are different than what is taught in public. Dr. Yang has many videos that show the forms, but the motions in the form are not exactly the same as the motions or postures in application. So, we have to learn two versions. The public version, and the application version. There can be several different versions of application. The concepts are what matter most, and they are what makes an application useful or not. What’s right or wrong is somewhat subjective. My Sifu used to say “don’t worry if you are right or wrong, you are wrong, just keep going.”

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

Not exactly — they’re the same in principle but don’t always look the same. In real use, they adapt.

In solo practice, the external harmonies (hands-feet, elbows-knees, shoulders-hips) are trained with clear structure to build precision and connection. Without resistance, everything looks neat and symmetrical. In application, those harmonies adjust with timing, distance, and an opponent’s movement.

The arrows in the diagram show the flow of Yi (intent) and Qi, not literal movement. The goal is to keep that internal link no matter how your body shifts. Postures are training tools, not the goal.

100%

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

Not exactly — they’re the same in principle but don’t always look the same. In real use, they adapt.

In solo practice, the external harmonies (hands-feet, elbows-knees, shoulders-hips) are trained with clear structure to build precision and connection. Without resistance, everything looks neat and symmetrical. In application, those harmonies adjust with timing, distance, and an opponent’s movement.

The arrows in the diagram show the flow of Yi (intent) and Qi, not literal movement. The goal is to keep that internal link no matter how your body shifts. Postures are training tools, not the goal.

Very well said.

 

[isshinryuronin]

"Are we talking about MA? Should MA always involve with more than 1 person?"

Like most practical jobs, there are two parts: The quality of the tool and the skill with which it's applied. In other words, construction and use. The tool can be a hammer, gun or a punch. How it's crafted is important. In MA we craft our own tools by years of practice and endless drills. This is solo practice.

Once the tool has been honed it can be admired as a work of fine art. This is the "A" in MA. To get the "M" we now need to learn how to use the tool so its potential can be fully realized. This requires a partner - hard to learn how to use a hammer without a nail to pound. Partner drills and sparring do this.

Both elements are necessary. Forms, IMO, can be a link between the M and A, containing elements of both.

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

When I look at a picture that only has 1 person in it, I start to wonder "Are we talking about MA? Should MA always involve with more than 1 person?"

I have always taught "partner drill" first. I told all my students that "partner drill" without partner will be the "solo training".

What's the usage that if you have good 6 harmonies training but your punch cannot land on your opponent's face?

There is time for that, after they can apply principles their punch will be better for it. Why the rush to throw crummy off balance punches? I think partner drills without concepts or applying principles will teach bad habits in striking. They will just try to win with what they have instead of building good habits.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Thanks, windwalker and Wing Woo Gar, for sharing your insights.

Very much appreciated

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

Both elements are necessary. Forms, IMO, can be a link between the M and A, containing elements of both.

I agree that both are necessary. But one needs to develop a skill (from partner drill) first before he can polish it (from solo training). It's the order that I have concern about.

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

I think partner drills without concepts or applying principles will teach bad habits in striking. They will just try to win with what they have instead of building good habits.

I'm strongly against the solo form first and application later approach. A teacher may create a group of dancers.

First, you don't try to win in partner training. Your opponent will give you that opportunity and he will not resist. Second, teacher can teach principles and good habit when he teaches partner drill.

This is how the Shuai Chiao is taught, partner drill first, solo drill later.

When this video was taken, students had not learned solo drill yet.

They learned solo drill at least 6 months later. If solo drills (form) is taught only to the advance students, students will treat solo form in much higher value. Today, solo form is taught to beginner during day one.

 

[isshinryuronin]

But one needs to develop a skill (from partner drill) first before he can polish it (from solo training). It's the order that I have concern about.

There are varied opinions on this. Some like the Karate Kids method of "wipe on, wipe off" where the move is practiced without the student knowing the true application until the move is proficient. Some agree with you, teaching the application first and develop the technique as the app is practiced with a partner.

I really don't know which is best. In karate kata, it has been most often that the move is taught and the bunkai revealed later. Historically, this was probably not the way it was taught, but the way I was taught so I may have some bias since I think I turned out OK.

I think the best way is:

1. Show the application and have the student try it against you to give him some context and experience the difficulty in execution. This takes a couple of minutes and provides a goal to his practice.

2. Solo drill the technique (aided by knowing what it's for) until a workable proficiency is acquired. This can take a couple of weeks or months.

3. Now, go back to application against a partner to find the weak spots in execution and work with increasing resistance during the year.

IMO, this is the best of both worlds. The goal of the technique is well understood and since proper form is already ingrained, bad habits are prevented during the stress of resisted partner work. Of course, one student may do better with one way than the other so the individual must be considered in the approach.

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

There are varied opinions on this. Some like the Karate Kids method of "wipe on, wipe off" where the move is practiced without the student knowing the true application until the move is proficient. Some agree with you, teaching the application first and develop the technique as the app is practiced with a partner.

1. My long fist training is "form first and application later."
2. My SC training is "application first and form later".

I can compare both approaches and draw conclusion. IMO, method 1 can create dancers which may give MA a bad reputation.

 

[isshinryuronin]

method 1 can create dancers which may give MA a bad reputation.

I actually dated a couple of dancers with bad reputation, but their application of technique was excellent!

Apologies for the cheap humor. I was just reminded of the distant past.

 

[Appledog43]

Like Johnwang said, the ancient method is for you to learn the partner drill first.

In the old Chinese military, there was jiao ti, the historical combat system. It evolved into the martial art known as Shuai Jiao. Jiao Ti, meaning "butting with horns," was an early form of military wrestling used by the ancient Chinese army. In this system the soldiers learned to fight straight away. Much later, solo forms were taught out of necessity of people who wanted to train by themselves.

The partner drill is always better. Anyone who tells you differently is selling something.

 

[Xue Sheng98]

Like Johnwang said, the ancient method is for you to learn the partner drill first.

In the old Chinese military, there was jiao ti, the historical combat system. It evolved into the martial art known as Shuai Jiao. Jiao Ti, meaning "butting with horns," was an early form of military wrestling used by the ancient Chinese army. In this system the soldiers learned to fight straight away. Much later, solo forms were taught out of necessity of people who wanted to train by themselves.

The partner drill is always better. Anyone who tells you differently is selling something.

Allegedly
Jiaode (Yellow Emperor) > Jaiole (Zhou Dynasty) > Shuaijiao (early 1900s)

 

[windwalker099105]

Like most practical jobs, there are two parts: The quality of the tool and the skill with which it's applied. In other words, construction and use. The tool can be a hammer, gun or a punch. How it's crafted is important. In MA we craft our own tools by years of practice and endless drills. This is solo practice.

Once the tool has been honed it can be admired as a work of fine art. This is the "A" in MA. To get the "M" we now need to learn how to use the tool so its potential can be fully realized. This requires a partner - hard to learn how to use a hammer without a nail to pound. Partner drills and sparring do this.

Both elements are necessary. Forms, IMO, can be a link between the M and A, containing elements of both.

Agree,

Although it kinda depends...

The level, experience of a student. For those having some training, The first thing to do is help them to understand differences in what they feel they already know, and what they want to know..

For those with no training or experience
The tool has to be created first — done through solo practice.

The kind of tool developed depends entirely on the focus of the training.

External systems a little easier to grasp — the mechanics are familiar, and you can see directly what’s required. Internal systems, especially at a high level, require very different training. They’re often felt long before they’re understood, not fully realized in one's body until a solid foundation has been built.

A quick story: A cold winter morning in Beijing, arriving early as was my practice in the park.

My teacher when he arrived said " I will train you as I was trained" and motioned for me to attack him. For next hour or so he threw me into the dirt over and over,

Smiling saying, “Again.” When other students arrived, he stopped.
My lesson for the day.