Faye (Li) Yip's Bow stance is wrong?

[TC1000]

Hi everyone.

I have a question for more advanced Tai Chi practitioners. I've seen a few of Master Faye (Li) Yip's performance and it seems sometimes her knee passed toes while she's standing in Bow stance. Every tutorials I watched always say that it is considered incorrect and may cause knee problems. How it is possible that a high level Tai Chi master does a mistake like that? I'll be grateful for your opinion. I'm adding two screenshots for a proof.

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

In order to move forward, you have to move your gravity center in front of your base (your knee will past your toes). The gravity then pulls your body forward, and you need to step in the other leg to regain your balance.

You can move forward without moving your gravity center in front of your base (your knee won't pass your toes). But if you don't move your knee to pass your toes, you can't borrow the gravity force.

In other words, if your forward intention is not that strong, you don't need to move your gravity center in front of your base.

 

[TC1000]

But she didn't do it in order to move. If you want you can check on your own. I'm curious what your opinion will be?

 

[TC1000]

And why all Tai Chi tutorials warn to not passing toes line? It would be great to hear (read) someone with a good experience like yours.

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

Momentum is 2 edges sword. You can use it to run your opponent down. Your opponent can also borrow your force and pull you off balance. Most Taiji takes more conservative approach here.

 

[TC1000]

So the way Master Faye performance tai chi is correct?

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

So the way Master Faye performance tai chi is correct?

There is "static rooting" and there is "dynamic rooting". The static rooting is simple. You never move your gravity center outside of your base. The dynamic rooting is to lose your balance first. You then regain your balance back. It depends on your purpose. There is no absolute right or wrong in MA.

If you train to

- take your opponent down, you take the aggressive approach - always move your gravity center outside of your base first.
- not to be pulled down by your opponent, you take the conservative approach - never move your gravity center outside of your base.

In the following clips, some people may say the training is wrong - over committed.

But to achieve this application, that training is a must.

 

[TC1000]

Very interesting point of view. Thank you for help.

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

And why all Tai Chi tutorials warn to not passing toes line? It would be great to hear (read) someone with a good experience like yours.

Its warning is for beginners not to hurt the knee by “grabbing”. You learn the rules to break them sometimes.

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

But she didn't do it in order to move. If you want you can check on your own. I'm curious what your opinion will be?

You may not see it, even though all weight is on one foot or the other, she will still load the loaded leg. in order to shift the weight.

 

[Appledog43]

So the way Master Faye performance tai chi is correct?

Correct in what sense? Nobody is perfect! It is easy to find errors in the form of a master... It's the errors you don't see, that you can't correct, that are the problem.

 

[TC1000]

In the sense of the principles that Tai Chi adepts are taught. In my opinion a master should be perfect that's where their titles come from. It is not about looking for errors. It's about a good example.

 

[Appledog43]

In the sense of the principles that Tai Chi adepts are taught. In my opinion a master should be perfect that's where their titles come from. It is not about looking for errors. It's about a good example.

Okay so, did you ask Master Yip why her knees were over her toes? She does it in her Sun style as well, so it's something she is doing independent of style.

To be fair, my Sifu also learned from Sun Jian Yun, and she does not allow knees to pass the toes in this fashion.

In Chinese Traditional Medicine, when there is a problem, it's true heart and it's solution are usually in different places than the apparent issue. The same may be true in this case. I honestly suggest sending Master Yip an e-mail and asking about it. It's interesting, but I am not worried about it, and I am not sure it's a "true mistake" in that sense. I think she may be doing it for other reasons, adapting the form to her own body.

 

[TC1000]

You may be right about a "true mistake". I never said that I know better how to perform Tai Chi correctly if you meant so. I just found this weird that someone with her Tai Chi status could make a noobie mistake. But having in mind what Kung Fu Wang and Wing Woo Gar did write in their previous replys it's clearing things out a bit. I asked Master Yip via YT comment section and I'm still waiting for an answer. Maybe I'll try via email.

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

I just found this weird that someone with her Tai Chi status could make a noobie mistake.

In Taiji training, the end of your previous move is the beginning of your current move. Sometimes, you just exaggerate the end of your previous move, so you can borrow the gravity force to enhance your current move.

In this video, you can clearly see his right knee pass his right foot. This way, he can borrow the gravity pulling to step in his right foot and coordinate with his right punch.

 

[TC1000]

In the real fight sense of course but if we're taking about the form itself? Shouldn't be performed as the principles said? And making it clear I'm not trying to offend anyone. Just from my perspective as a beginner it is confusing when I see a master that breaks the fundamental principals because I don't know the reason.

 

[Appledog43]

In the real fight sense of course but if we're taking about the form itself? Shouldn't be performed as the principles said? And making it clear I'm not trying to offend anyone. Just from my perspective as a beginner it is confusing when I see a master that breaks the fundamental principals because I don't know the reason.

There is another side to your question. What is the benefit of keeping the knees over the toes? That is, why do you do it? I know there is a penalty for putting them past the mark, but what is the idea behind putting them in the correct position, anyhow? The answer to this question might be deeper than you think, and could even reveal why she is doing it the way she is.

 

[isshinryuronin]

There is "static rooting" and there is "dynamic rooting". The static rooting is simple. You never move your gravity center outside of your base. The dynamic rooting is to lose your balance first. You then regain your balance back. It depends on your purpose. There is no absolute right or wrong in MA.

"Dynamic rooting" is pretty much not found in karate. Keeping balance and full control of your movement is of utmost importance. Now, in fencing there is an attack called fleche (flaysh). In this move you explosively launch yourself at the opponent with the weapon extended and the body leading the legs. The attack has you blow past the opponent at the end.

The fleche works in fencing as the field of battle is very constrained, a strip only about 4 feet wide. The attack carries you out of range, both from a counter and your own follow-up attack. You cannot score by moving to the opponent's back, coming up behind him. This is very different from real fighting where being out balance/position is very risky.

Is losing your balance a good thing and workable in CMA? The second clip in your post #7 shows a takedown with the guy stumbling a few steps afterwords, similar to the fleche. He cannot follow up and the opponent is free to regain position. Am I missing something?

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

In the real fight sense of course but if we're taking about the form itself?

The form training is to prepare for real fight. If your training is the same as you fight, you just kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

Training:

Fighting:

 

[TC1000]

The answer to this question might be deeper than you think

Or is very simple. The form itself should ba a "treasure box" that allow you to bulid your fundamental knowledge. But does it make any sense to expand your legs position so much? In the application trening with full speed shouldn't even hurt your knee when passing over toes.