Faye (Li) Yip's Bow stance is wrong?

[windwalker099105]

I just didn't see any sense in passing my knee over toes practicing gentle and slow Tai Chi forms.

Might just come down to a teacher’s influences.

Historically Taiji was pretty tough physically. Some Yang Ban Hou training was even said to be done “under a table.”

My teacher's grandson trained this way... some others did low basin work too — Not every one was trained in it...took a while to condition the legs and body before practice really started.

The only caution was don’t twist directly on the knee, or you’ll mess it up.

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

The deeper, lower stance is more difficult, especially at first. I believe that it is more informative to the overall practice. Some things can be felt easier when down low. The more ankle bend one can achieve, the better the application quality.

 

[windwalker099105]

The deeper, lower stance is more difficult, especially at first. I believe that it is more informative to the overall practice. Some things can be felt easier when down low. The more ankle bend one can achieve, the better the application quality.

Feel it depends on the method that one uses....I do know the practice was very difficult... not everyone practiced in this way, it did color all the practices no matter what height was used as one's base practice.
With those that did practice in this way, it was not possible to physically push them out in push hands



Not affiliated with me or my teachers Group. Was shot in Taiwan by a friend who competed, during the 8th annual push championships..

 

[JowGaWolf]

The feeling is way more different I admit. I can feel when my balance changed with my moves and another muscles started to work. But I'm afraid we have a small misunderstanding hear. I wasn't questioning that in all situations. I just didn't see any sense in passing my knee over toes practicing gentle and slow Tai Chi forms. I understand benefits when I fight moving fast and explosive of course.

You have your answer in this post. You are closer to it than you realize.

 

[marvin83]

What is your Karate style? I trained Kyokushin. Our Shihan always warned as to do not do it, similar to the tai chi rule. But my dojo was more kickboxing-like oriented than a kata practice.

The feeling is way more different I admit. I can feel when my balance changed with my moves and another muscles started to work. But I'm afraid we have a small misunderstanding hear. I wasn't questioning that in all situations. I just didn't see any sense in passing my knee over toes practicing gentle and slow Tai Chi forms. I understand benefits when I fight moving fast and explosive of course.

Yes, many martial arts have that bow stance/knee rule. The disadvantage is you can be attacked when you are overextended in the (wide) bow stance. One should be able to flow from one position to the other (offense/defense) not be stuck/double weighted.

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

I practice for health not to destroy it.

If you sit on a wheelchair, you will never hurt your knee.

Combat and health may not go together sometimes. When you punch on heavy bag, it will not be healthy for your hand. When you kick on heavy bag, it also will not be healthy for your knee joint.

It's hard to draw a line between combat training and health maintenance.

This video shows a single leg up hill hopping training. It can help you to develop good single leg balance. But it can also hurt your knee joint.

It's OK to train this when you are young. It's not smart to train this when you are old.

 

[Nochoi]

I have a question for more advanced Tai Chi practitioners. I've seen a few of Master Faye (Li) Yip's performance and it seems sometimes her knee passed toes while she's standing in Bow stance. Every tutorials I watched always say that it is considered incorrect and may cause knee problems. How it is possible that a high level Tai Chi master does a mistake like that?

Her stance looks very athletic, long and narrow, and myself, I wouldn't want to do Tai Chi like that. I stand more square and at ease. My knees are still fine. To me, doing Tai Chi like her is a mistake.

But there are different people who want different things from their practice and therefore right and wrong depend.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Feel it depends on the method that one uses....I do know the practice was very difficult... not everyone practiced in this way, it did color all the practices no matter what height was used as one's base practice.
With those that did practice in this way, it was not possible to physically push them out in push hands



Not affiliated with me or my teachers Group. Was shot in Taiwan by a friend who competed, during the 8th annual push championships..

The low stance is a defensive posture and not an offensive posture. It works like this.
High stance: Offensive Stance = Offensive Attack (Evade Focus while attacking)

Low stance: Defensive Stance = Defensive Attack (Defense Focus while attacking)

There are specific strategies and techniques that are design to make the most out of these postures.

Here's a good example of everything that has been mentioned from the thread. You can see how they cycle through the different postures. You have to watch the degree that the knees bend.

 

[windwalker099105]

The low stance is a defensive posture and not an offensive posture. It works like this.
High stance: Offensive Stance = Offensive Attack (Evade Focus while attacking)

We see this differently — the way I was taught, high vs. low, large vs. small frame isn’t about “offense” or “defense,” but training focus.


With my teacher’s group, for those developing the low basin skill, it wasn’t possible to apply force on them because of their range of movement. I’ve found this true with other Taiji stylists I’ve met over the years.

However, if one had developed an internal focus to the same degree of the others low basin development, external force was not necessary to throw them out..As in all things depending on level... I've found this to be very consistent over the yrs, my own practice reflecting my findings.


Training the lower basin postures is very physical and takes a lot of auxiliary work just to start correctly. Small frame, or high basin, is also very challenging when done with proper alignment and principles. Both develop different aspects.


It really depends on what you’re looking for and your experience. Small frame can build strong internal focus, while low basin emphasizes structure and strength. Neither is “better” — just different approaches.

Examples of differences in thought

Cheng Man-ch’ing’s Short Form and the Yang-Style Long Form: Differences and Relative Benefits

Good article by Robert Chuckrow

Although I would not agree with some of his premises he does present some interesting thoughts.
Cheng Man-ch’ing’s Short Form and the Yang-Style Long Form: Differences and Relative Benefits

 

[windwalker099105]

There are specific strategies and techniques that are design to make the most out of these postures.

Here's a good example of everything that has been mentioned from the thread. You can see how they cycle through the different postures. You have to watch the degree that the knees bend.

Nice clips

Not a fan of push hands outside of its use as a training tool.

That said, working with those who train competitively is a great way to test theories and development with people who have a different outlook. Find it fun and interesting when visiting Taiwan.

One competitor told me, “I know it’s not really Taiji, but to win, this is how we train.” Very honest and upfront.

At a certain level of development, rules and postures become irrelevant. One responds naturally within the concept of Taiji — there’s no separation between what is and what isn’t, only levels of skill.

The 8th world Championships in Taiwan. a friend who competed filmed this at the time...

 

[JowGaWolf]

We see this differently — the way I was taught, high vs. low, large vs. small frame isn’t about “offense” or “defense,” but training focus.

We don't see things differently. You are just talking about a different aspect of development You even acknowledge with your comment "but training focus." My comments were not based on "training focus."

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

We don't see things differently. You are just talking about a different aspect of development

In another post, I mentioned the difference between "fast walking" and "slow running".

The difference is:

Fast walking - your gravity center is always in your base. You are always in balance mode.
Slow running - your gravity center may be in front of your base. You are always in unbalance mode.

Even if your fast walking and slow running may have the same speed, One is using static rooting and the other is using dynamic rooting.

In the long fist system, there are 2 different ways of walking:

1. 4-6 stance walking (static walking - similar to fast walking).
2. Bow-arrow stance walking (dynamic walking - similar to slow running).

Since Taiji came from the long fist system, the dynamic walking principle may be carried over into the Taiji system.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not a fan of push hands outside of its use as a training tool.

I guess it just depends how you are applying the concepts. When I apply push hands concepts in sparring, it does not look like the one used in Tai Chi Training. But it is rooted in:
Sensing, Understanding the incoming force, Neutralizing, and sending force. All of this has a tendency of popping up in my grappling. All of those things are rooted in my Tai chi push hands. What you see in this video was not born from Jow Ga it was born from Tai Chi

(Sensing.) He comes in with punches, but his punches do not drive through. The result is that he gets jammed up against me. When punch drives through I move. When they do not then I stand my ground. This requires me to be able to feel the impact and how it changes as he moves forward. (Understanding)


This is a good positong for me to sense because I have more areas of contact.

The above picture give me the feeling that I could move him by moving my body so I did and as a result it popped him back. Look closely at the position of my arms.

If I stay in the position above then I will become his root. His energy leaning forward and at this point it should feel as if I'm holding him up. So I step back and pull him into his lean.

At this position he's literally falling. I have 2 options. Pull him down into his fall or pull him through. I choose to pull him through and twist him. As he's falling forward. I'm going to use my right hand to pull on his arm and to twist him as he's moving forward.

Unfortunately this time I didn't have enough knowledge and skill to make a better decision, but you can still hear the force as his foot hits the ground.
Nuetralizing was me turning him as he was moving forward.

there’s no separation between what is and what isn’t, only levels of skill.

I believe this as well. The video shows it. It was there but my skill level at that time was not able to capitalize on it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Notice any similarities (the placement of the my knee in relation to the body). I'm not saying I'm the best. I'm just saying that the concepts sometimes come to the surface in my sparring.

The commentator doesn't like the foot sweep. That one foot sweep greatly changed the dynamics. The white shiirt's rooting changed and look at how much he abandoned and how much worst things became after he abandoned it. At that point he was beat mentally and then the physical beating followed.

 

[windwalker099105]

We don't see things differently.

wrote this before the other postings.

Apparently, we do see things differently — although you may think not.
How could we not, based on our experiences?

Nothing wrong with that.

A training focus lets one develop and use aspects not covered in other approaches. This is very evident in the Taiji world, where different methods, based on specific focuses, build different skill sets and perspectives.

As for Taiji’s evolution or integration with other influences:
What is or isn’t Taiji has always been debated — even historically with Chen style. “What’s in a name?”

The OP mentioned they thought the teacher’s knee placement was off and wondered why.

My answer was to reference the Six Harmonies, especially the three external harmonies. There’s no mention of the knee being “too far forward” or “too far back” as incorrect. The harmonies describe body integration and alignment, not a knee-to-toe rule.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Apparently, we do see things differently — although you may think not.

Why do you think that I wasn't trained in this way too?
Your Statement " the way I was taught, high vs. low, large vs. small frame isn’t about “offense” or “defense,” but training focus."

Who am I fighting against? Who am defending against? What am I doing? Training. This is why I said we don't see differently. At least in this aspect.

If anything, I see things in multiple ways.

 

[windwalker099105]

Why do you think that I wasn't trained in this way too?
Your Statement " the way I was taught, high vs. low, large vs. small frame isn’t about “offense” or “defense,” but training focus."

From what you’ve shared so far, I don’t see anything that aligns with the "taiji" we trained in my teacher’s group.

Who am I fighting against? Who am defending against? What am I doing? Training. This is why I said we don't see differently. At least in this aspect.

Training can develop very different aspects depending on its focus. What you’ve shown doesn’t align with the skill sets we emphasized in our training.

The OP asked:
“How is it possible that a high-level Tai Chi master makes a mistake like that? I’d be grateful for your opinion. I’m adding two screenshots as proof.”

I don't, view them as "mistakes" but as expressions of her practice.
In my practice, we follow the Six Harmonies (六合).
The three external harmonies (外三合) are:

Hands–Feet Unity (手与足合)
Elbows–Knees Unity (肘与膝合)
Shoulders–Hips Unity (肩与胯合)

The teacher’s postures in the screen shots align with these principles.

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

In my practice, we follow the Six Harmonies (六合). The three external harmonies (外三合) are:

Hands–Feet Unity (手与足合)
Elbows–Knees Unity (肘与膝合)
Shoulders–Hips Unity (肩与胯合)

The focus is different, leads to different outcomes.

Is this just common sense? Why does anybody not want to follow this guideline? Even in Karate form competition, the judges also look for hand and foot coordination. Some southern CMA systems may freeze the low body and only punch with the arms. IMO, that's abnormal and not normal.

My SC teacher had never mentioned the term 6 harmonies. But he had said, "Human body is like 3 springs. Without coordination, each spring will compress and release indecently. With coordination, all 3 springs can be compressed at the same time, also can be released at the same time". What he had said was more detail than 6 harmonies.

 

[Teapot]

Hi everyone.

I have a question for more advanced Tai Chi practitioners. I've seen a few of Master Faye (Li) Yip's performance and it seems sometimes her knee passed toes while she's standing in Bow stance. Every tutorials I watched always say that it is considered incorrect and may cause knee problems. How it is possible that a high level Tai Chi master does a mistake like that? I'll be grateful for your opinion. I'm adding two screenshots for a proof.

Well, for starters, I suggest you dismiss the idea of "Master". Taijiquan isn't like Chess, where there's a Chess "Master" or Chess "Grandmaster".

Ask yourself this: What Chinese word do people try to translate to mean Master? And then ask yourself: What does that Chinese word actually mean?

You do this for health. Don't let your knees passed the toes. If people say it's no big deal, then by that same logic, it should be no big deal to have you knees not passed the toes, right?

Health aside, there is a functional reason for not letting the knees pass the toes. Even if your knee joint is immune to injury, your "root" becomes flimsy if the knee is passed the toes. Granted, I don't expect people to know what I am talking about here because most Taijiquan do not really have "root".

There are, however, exceptions to knee passed the toes in Taijiquan. For example, there are postures where your heel is raised which causes the knee to be passed the toes. That is fine.

In my view, sinking and having a root are two different things, but related.

 

[windwalker099105]

My SC teacher had never mentioned the term 6 harmonies.

My Taiji teacher didn't mention it directly either, he did talk about the inner and outer combining.
The key point was opening the joints and developing internal connections through outer alignments. Later, those internal connections would shape the outer alignments, providing a feedback loop strengthening the inner alignments.

I use this concept to help the people I work with understand the relationship between inner and outer alignments.

Old Taiji Master teach the essence of Taiji in the park(English and Chinese subtitles Version).
The teacher talks about sinking the shoulders, elbows, and wrist