Faye (Li) Yip's Bow stance is wrong?

[TC1000]

The form training is to prepare for real fight. If your training is the same as you fight, you just kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

I agree with you. But Tai Chi and even other MA forms can't be use 100% unchanged in the real fight (at least most of them i guess). So what is the benefit of breaking the principals anyway?

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

Is losing your balance a good thing and workable in CMA?

It's called "take down your opponent and take off". It's a good strategy in street fight.

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

So what is the benefit of breaking the principals anyway?

The benefit is "momentum".

 

[JowGaWolf]

I ran this thread through my Ai. I was curious to see if there were any changes. Let me know if this is accurate.

Tension	Description
Principle vs. Adaptation	TC1000 sees deviation from a taught rule and interprets it as error. Elders reframe it as context-sensitive adaptation.
Form vs. Function	TC1000 separates form from combat. Kung Fu Wang collapses that boundary, saying form is tactical rehearsal.
Correctness vs. Purpose	Appledog reframes “correct” as “purpose-aligned,” not “rule-bound.”
Visible vs. Invisible mastery	Wing Woo Gar and Appledog suggest that what looks like error may reflect deeper biomechanical or strategic logic.

Core Lesson:
Visible deviation is not always error. What looks like a violation of principle may be a deliberate, lineage-informed, body-specific choice—especially when the practitioner is a master.

Supporting Insights (Plain Language Version)​

• Beginners need rules to stay safe. Tutorials say “don’t let your knee go past your toes” because it protects your joints while you’re still learning how to move with control.
• Masters sometimes break those rules—but on purpose. When someone like Master Faye Yip does it, it’s not a mistake. It’s a deliberate choice based on experience, body mechanics, or tactical intent.
• “Correct” depends on the goal. If you’re training for balance and control, you follow the rule. If you’re training to generate power or shift weight dynamically, you might break it.
• Form isn’t just about looking right—it’s about doing what’s needed. A stance might look “off” but still be exactly what’s needed for a specific move or application.
• Confusion is part of learning. TC1000’s question wasn’t wrong—it was the beginning of metabolizing a deeper truth: that principles are tools, not cages.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Is losing your balance a good thing and workable in CMA?

For me this doesn't exist even when stumbling. It definitely doesn't exist in CMA which forces the body to move in ways in which the body must have to know how to maintain balance.

It's like this. You aren't practicing to stumble, You are practicing to maintain balance in a "stumble position"

I watched Kung Fu wangs video " "take down your opponent and take off"" He didn't look like he's off balance. He has too much control in his movement to be off balance. His body isn't in panic mode which is common when someone loses a significant balance. For me, balance isn't always stable, but balance always means weight movement is in control. I

 

[TC1000]

I ran this thread through my Ai. I was curious to see if there were any changes. Let me know if this is accurate.

Tension	Description
Principle vs. Adaptation	TC1000 sees deviation from a taught rule and interprets it as error. Elders reframe it as context-sensitive adaptation.
Form vs. Function	TC1000 separates form from combat. Kung Fu Wang collapses that boundary, saying form is tactical rehearsal.
Correctness vs. Purpose	Appledog reframes “correct” as “purpose-aligned,” not “rule-bound.”
Visible vs. Invisible mastery	Wing Woo Gar and Appledog suggest that what looks like error may reflect deeper biomechanical or strategic logic.

Core Lesson:
Visible deviation is not always error. What looks like a violation of principle may be a deliberate, lineage-informed, body-specific choice—especially when the practitioner is a master.

Supporting Insights (Plain Language Version)​

• Beginners need rules to stay safe. Tutorials say “don’t let your knee go past your toes” because it protects your joints while you’re still learning how to move with control.
• Masters sometimes break those rules—but on purpose. When someone like Master Faye Yip does it, it’s not a mistake. It’s a deliberate choice based on experience, body mechanics, or tactical intent.
• “Correct” depends on the goal. If you’re training for balance and control, you follow the rule. If you’re training to generate power or shift weight dynamically, you might break it.
• Form isn’t just about looking right—it’s about doing what’s needed. A stance might look “off” but still be exactly what’s needed for a specific move or application.
• Confusion is part of learning. TC1000’s question wasn’t wrong—it was the beginning of metabolizing a deeper truth: that principles are tools, not cages.

In my opinion your AI analysis is accurate.

 

[TC1000]

It's called "take down your opponent and take off". It's a good strategy in street fight.

I don't know. Have you seen one of most common techniques " single or double leg takedown" in mma or bjj match? I'm sure you have. In many cases things won't go as you wish. If you're opponent know what he does then... fighters with wrestling and ground game background can take advantage in this situation. Worst if it's a street fighter with no rules.

 

[Same Trick50]

"Dynamic rooting" is pretty much not found in karate. Keeping balance and full control of your movement is of utmost importance. Now, in fencing there is an attack called fleche (flaysh). In this move you explosively launch yourself at the opponent with the weapon extended and the body leading the legs. The attack has you blow past the opponent at the end.

The fleche works in fencing as the field of battle is very constrained, a strip only about 4 feet wide. The attack carries you out of range, both from a counter and your own follow-up attack. You cannot score by moving to the opponent's back, coming up behind him. This is very different from real fighting where being out balance/position is very risky.

Is losing your balance a good thing and workable in CMA? The second clip in your post #7 shows a takedown with the guy stumbling a few steps afterwords, similar to the fleche. He cannot follow up and the opponent is free to regain position. Am I missing something?

Traditional “Gojushiho”(54step) Karate kata have a few “unstable” stepping, Nagamine(a karate master) mentioned it is to be performed as if being drunk

 

[Same Trick50]

Or is very simple. The form itself should ba a "treasure box" that allow you to bulid your fundamental knowledge. But does it make any sense to expand your legs position so much? In the application trening with full speed shouldn't even hurt your knee when passing over toes.

Feye Li is of the Li family that formalized the traditional TJQ into the modern wushu forms competition format, the exaggerated stances might be because of this, a form of beautification of the taiji forms ?

 

[TC1000]

a form of beautification of the taiji forms ?

I wouldn't be surprised. Same situation at Kata competition under WKF (my friend opinion) the exaggerated stances look more spectacular.

 

[Badhabits]

In the dojo I train at, front knee slightly forward of the toes is the default front stance. So far no issues with my knees. Only been doing it this way for about a decade though. In our case the main reason we do it this way is to keep momentum moving forward after an launching an attack. But it's deceptive too- in a fighting stance with your weight slightly forward of your base you can explode forward quicker. When your toes are slightly forward of the knee the set of the hips (and center of gravity being slightly forward or back) can be very subtle and people often don't notice when your weight is already in position to drive forward.

 

[TC1000]

In the dojo I train at, front knee slightly forward of the toes is the default front stance. So far no issues with my knees. Only been doing it this way for about a decade though. In our case the main reason we do it this way is to keep momentum moving forward after an launching an attack. But it's deceptive too- in a fighting stance with your weight slightly forward of your base you can explode forward quicker. When your toes are slightly forward of the knee the set of the hips (and center of gravity being slightly forward or back) can be very subtle and people often don't notice when your weight is already in position to drive forward.

What is your Karate style? I trained Kyokushin. Our Shihan always warned as to do not do it, similar to the tai chi rule. But my dojo was more kickboxing-like oriented than a kata practice.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In my opinion your AI analysis is accurate.

Thanks. I've been working for months to increase its accuracy and a big part of that is simply just understanding what's going on in the conversation. I'm still trying to train it about martial arts. I was going to start it with just forms but it doesn't do anything if it's not aware of the concepts and questions that people in general have about Martial Arts. I appreciate your feedback.

What is your Karate style? I trained Kyokushin. Our Shihan always warned as to do not do it, similar to the tai chi rule. But my dojo was more kickboxing-like oriented than a kata practice.

One of the things you have to do when training is to understand the purpose of the motions that you do. For example, Knee not going over the toes is for training. You can try this yourself. Do a horse stance when your knees do not go beyond your toes. Pay attention to which muscles are engaged. Pay attention to the balance that you. After having a good feeling and focusing on these things, slowly move your knees beyond your toes? What changes? Are you using a different set of muscles, do you have a different type of balance? How does the weight feel on your feet? What does your movement feel like sluggish or faster?

I'm the one on the right. My knee is past my toes, my rear foot is up. These are all things that a student is told not to do in kung fu. But what I'm doing here is correct and it doesn't break any rules. I'll let you think about it.

 

[windwalker099105]

I'm the one on the right. My knee is past my toes, my rear foot is up. These are all things that a student is told not to do in kung fu.

Interesting — that rule might apply to some stances, in many traditional CMA stances, the knees naturally pass the toes.

One might ask: When was this first mentioned? Where does it come from, and why?

In my own readings of Taiji material, I haven’t seen anything explicitly stating this.

If someone has a direct quote or source, I’d be curious to see it.

My own work follows what’s called the Six Harmonies (六合):

External Harmonies:
手与足合 – Hands align with feet
肘与膝合 – Elbows align with knees
肩与胯合 – Shoulders align with hips

Both pictures show this.
One in use the other static

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

I walk on the dry sand beach today. When I walked slowly on the dry sand, I could feel I had to control my balance left and right. But if I ran slowly on the dry sand beach, I didn't have that left and right unbalance feeling.

One day when you get old and you may feel that your walking doesn't have as good balance as you used to have (compare to when you were young). If you do "slow running" instead of "fast walking", suddenly, you can feel that all your good balance come back.

What's the difference between "fast walking" and "slow running"? Why will you feel better balance in "slow running" than in "fast walking"? IMO, the "momentum" can enhance your balance. If the gravity can pull your body forward, you will have less chance to vibrate left and right and feel unbalance.

This video also takes advantage on the forward momentum. The knees are clearly pass the toes.

 

[drop bear105]

Hi everyone.

I have a question for more advanced Tai Chi practitioners. I've seen a few of Master Faye (Li) Yip's performance and it seems sometimes her knee passed toes while she's standing in Bow stance. Every tutorials I watched always say that it is considered incorrect and may cause knee problems. How it is possible that a high level Tai Chi master does a mistake like that? I'll be grateful for your opinion. I'm adding two screenshots for a proof.

I don't believe it is as big an issue as people make it out to be.

There is a modern knees over toes movement that I think is debunking this from just a purely movement standpoint.

Whether it is right for tai chi. I don't know.

 

[Same Trick50]

boxing right cross - 必应

通过必应的智能搜索，可以更轻松地快速查找所需内容并获得奖励。

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Ok its not a tjq “brush knee twist step” but the boxing cross is a twist step , about all the right cross picks I can find the front knee do not extend past its foot

 

[TC1000]

Do a horse stance when your knees do not go beyond your toes. Pay attention to which muscles are engaged. Pay attention to the balance that you. After having a good feeling and focusing on these things, slowly move your knees beyond your toes? What changes? Are you using a different set of muscles, do you have a different type of balance? How does the weight feel on your feet? What does your movement feel like sluggish or faster?

The feeling is way more different I admit. I can feel when my balance changed with my moves and another muscles started to work. But I'm afraid we have a small misunderstanding hear. I wasn't questioning that in all situations. I just didn't see any sense in passing my knee over toes practicing gentle and slow Tai Chi forms. I understand benefits when I fight moving fast and explosive of course.

 

[TC1000]

One might ask: When was this first mentioned? Where does it come from, and why?

In my own readings of Taiji material, I haven’t seen anything explicitly stating this.

I have no idea when this was first mentioned. You can find it in almost all YT tutorials for beginners.

 

[TC1000]

I don't believe it is as big an issue as people make it out to be

I could agree. But as long as I don't know what long term consequences may be I can't risk. I practice for health not to destroy it.