Faye (Li) Yip's Bow stance is wrong?

[JowGaWolf]

From what you’ve shared so far, I don’t see anything that aligns with the "taiji" we trained in my teacher’s group.




Training can develop very different aspects depending on its focus. What you’ve shown doesn’t align with the skill sets we emphasized in our training.

The OP asked:
“How is it possible that a high-level Tai Chi master makes a mistake like that? I’d be grateful for your opinion. I’m adding two screenshots as proof.”

I don't, view them as "mistakes" but as expressions of her practice.
In my practice, we follow the Six Harmonies (六合).
The three external harmonies (外三合) are:

Hands–Feet Unity (手与足合)
Elbows–Knees Unity (肘与膝合)
Shoulders–Hips Unity (肩与胯合)

The teacher’s postures in the screen shots align with these principles.

Training can develop very different aspects depending on its focus. What you’ve shown doesn’t align with the skill sets we emphasized in our training.

Your Comment -
1. A training focus lets one develop and use aspects not covered in other approaches. This is very evident in the Taiji world, where different methods, based on specific focuses, build different skill sets and perspectives. I agree with this because I was taught the same logic. This is not different


Elbows–Knees Unity (肘与膝合)

Hands–Feet Unity (手与足合)

Shoulders–Hips Unity (肩与胯合) Same video above. In long fist there will be no power without this.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Is this just common sense?

It often occurs naturally in application you can see it occur in various types of martial arts. Application gave birth to forms. Forms did not give birth to Application. If a person trains application / sparring. Then they will eventually know it.

The only difference is some people are always "On" while other move "On" and "Off" Do you not punch because your lead leg cannot move forward.? This is the diffference between application and training. The rule cannot be as strict in application as they are in training. It's understood that people the "perfect" form in training so that it's not so distorted in application.

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

1. Hands–Feet Unity (手与足合)
2. Elbows–Knees Unity (肘与膝合)
3. Shoulders–Hips Unity (肩与胯合)

When you throw a punch, if 1 is achieved, 2 and 3 should also be achieved by default. Is it possible that you achieve 1 but don't achieve 2 or 3?

 

[windwalker099105]

I agree with this because I was taught the same logic. This is not different

It’s actually a bit different. The examples you and @Kung Fu Wang shared don’t really reflect why the Six Harmonies are traditionally emphasized for skill development.

“The Six Harmonies (六合) have long been referenced in both martial and Daoist traditions as a framework for unifying external structure with internal awareness — a way to approach the gradual shift from external coordination to internal integration.”

The methods you’ve shown may be helpful in other ways, but they don’t fully lead to this kind of development as traditionally intended.
..

When you throw a punch, if 1 is achieved, 2 and 3 should also be achieved by default. Is it possible that you achieve 1 but don't achieve 2 or 3?

It’s possible to train the external harmonies (外三合, Wài Sān Hé) without developing the internal harmonies (内三合, Nèi Sān Hé). And it’s also possible to train Yi, Qi, and Shen — the internal trinity — without linking them to function, especially if the training model focuses more on refinement than application.

The outcome depends on understanding what’s being trained, for what purpose, and under what conditions.
The challenge with these discussions is that not everyone has the same experience or the same skill sets.

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

It’s actually a bit different. The examples you and @Kung Fu Wang shared don’t really reflect why the Six Harmonies are traditionally emphasized for skill development.




The methods you’ve shown may be helpful in other ways, but they don’t fully lead to this kind of development as traditionally intended.
..



It’s possible to train the external harmonies (外三合, Wài Sān Hé) without developing the internal harmonies (内三合, Nèi Sān Hé). And it’s also possible to train Yi, Qi, and Shen — the internal trinity — without linking them to function, especially if the training model focuses more on refinement than application.

The outcome depends on understanding what’s being trained, for what purpose, and under what conditions.
The challenge with these discussions is that not everyone has the same experience or the same skill sets.

I agree with you mostly, but what good is refinement without application? Building a race car that never leaves the garage? You sit in it, rev the motor, and tinker, but to what end? I don’t mean that this is wrong, I want to understand the attraction.

 

[windwalker099105]

I agree with you mostly, but what good is refinement without application? Building a race car that never leaves the garage? You sit in it, rev the motor, and tinker, but to what end? I don’t mean that this is wrong, I want to understand the attraction.

My teacher met his teacher through a hands-on exchange.
I met him the same way — after crossing hands with one of his students here in the US.

Ended up going to Beijing to meet him, and that was it — dropped everything after that.
His first words to me were: “Try anything you like.”

For me, he made all the old Taiji stories real.

Most of his students, like me, had years of training in other CMA, but stayed with him after finding something completely different. Thirty years later, still working on it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

It’s possible to train the external harmonies (外三合, Wài Sān Hé) without developing the internal harmonies (内三合, Nèi Sān Hé).

My question is, if your hand is coordinate with your foot, under what condition that your elbow is not coordinate with your knee? IMO, we can simplify the external 3 coordination into just "hand coordinate with foot".

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

what good is refinement without application?

For me, he made all the old Taiji stories real.

Most of his students, like me, had years of training in other CMA, but stayed with him after finding something completely different. Thirty years later, still working on it.

I'm also interested in your answer on this, "What good is refinement without application? "

If any training that cannot enhance my application, I'll not spend my training time into it. I just finished my "3 star" training on my heavy bag today. If I need to use my hook punch to knock down my opponent's straight punch (application), my arm has to be strong (enhancement).

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

My teacher met his teacher through a hands-on exchange.
I met him the same way — after crossing hands with one of his students here in the US.

Ended up going to Beijing to meet him, and that was it — dropped everything after that.
His first words to me were: “Try anything you like.”

For me, he made all the old Taiji stories real.

Most of his students, like me, had years of training in other CMA, but stayed with him after finding something completely different. Thirty years later, still working on it.

When you find the real thing there is no denying it.

 

[Marsha Larts]

How are the 'three external harmonies' arranged in the taiji postures in the form(s)?

For example, what are the 'alignments' for the form postures of Single Whip, Brush Knee Twist Step, and Repulse The Monkey?

 

[windwalker099105]

'm also interested in your answer on this, "What good is refinement without application? "

All my teacher’s work was hands-on, not theory.

He once told me "there are things I can explain,..
The things, I have no words for, I can make you feel "

With this approach, you only move forward as far as your ability takes you. Some thought he was not explaining the theory , and left, not understanding he was giving them live, practical examples . In the traditional way he was taught..

Even with his direct approach, it was kinda strange, some doubted what they felt, staying trying to figure it out...
When in reality there was nothing to figure out...

Like a Zen koan — you have to transcend yourself.

Master Zhang in his 70s working with Zhao..

"The main quality one notices when pushing with Zhao, aside from his startlingly lightening speed, is how quickly he changes in order to never use force. He never feels fear, is always calm and never sweats or feels tired. He is always “empty.”

Zhao, one of my taiji bothers,,,,was a good guy, meeting and engaging with anyone..testing his skill sets...
Very funny at times....returned to China a while back...

 

[windwalker099105]

How are the 'three external harmonies' arranged in the taiji postures in the form(s)?

For example, what are the 'alignments' for the form postures of Single Whip, Brush Knee Twist Step, and Repulse The Monkey?

It might be better to view the Six Harmonies as a way to understand how to create a focal point in space with body and mind.
Body empty, mind active: let the external harmonies form the vectors, of where the qi will converge guided by the mind. Like shooting an arrow.

“one point” is developed and used — not through static alignment or dynamic alignment that relies on the body alone to transmit force.

This is different. The why trying to apply this theory to other practices often falls short of its intended process — it won’t make sense when viewed through another lens.

If one's practice is not based on this, what is written might not make much sense...

 

[Marsha Larts]

It might be better to view the Six Harmonies as a way to understand how to create a focal point in space with body and mind.
Body empty, mind active: set yi on the point, let the external harmonies form the vectors, of where the qi will converge.

That’s how “one point” is developed and used — not through static alignment or dynamic alignment that relies on the body alone to transmit force.

This is different. That’s why trying to apply this theory to other practices often falls short of its intended process — it won’t make sense when viewed through another lens.

If one's practice is not based on this, what is written might not make much sense...

Ok, thanks

You're right that it might not make sense unless someone is basing their practice on those ideas.

The reason I asked is because it's apparent that there are different ways in which people are approaching the incorporation of the harmonies into their taiji training as a basis for the 'application' of taiji as a fighting method that carries over from their solo practice.

I'm just wondering if there are more specific details in how the external harmonies are applied in aligning the body as per the various postures found in the form.

 

[isshinryuronin]

it was kinda strange because some doubted what they felt, stying trying to figure it out...
When in reality there was nothing to figure out...

As I've been reading for some time here, there are many facets of CMA theory/philosophy that have been debated and discussed amongst its practitioners, and to be honest, I haven't given them much thought. Not that they aren't valid and present in execution/application, it just seems a bit over-indulgent to me. This, from a karate practitioner whose approach to the art is more direct and pragmatic, less philosophical.

Traditional Chinese culture and MA is certainly older, more developed and refined than the less sophisticated Okinawans whose world view was less philosophical ("simpler" may be a comparitive description of this tiny island nation). While they owe much to CMA in the development of karate, they left out much of the "intellectual" content, stripping it down, concentrating on the practical combat application of the fighting techniques that many of the early masters used in their LE-type professions.

Of course, traditional karate has its theory and a bit of its own philosophy, but it's in the background of its practice and not much is made of it. It's built-in, quietly expressed in the doing, the "feel." This is why you don't see karate people discussing such things as much as CMA people. Their view is more like what windwalker099 expressed: "When in reality there was nothing to figure out." We karate-ka are a simple people .

By no means is this post a value judgement on the arts - simply an observation of the differences from a karate practitioner's perspective on the two TMA cultures.

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

Ok, thanks

You're right that it might not make sense unless someone is basing their practice on those ideas.

The reason I asked is because it's apparent that there are different ways in which people are approaching the incorporation of the harmonies into their taiji training as a basis for the 'application' of taiji as a fighting method that carries over from their solo practice.

I'm just wondering if there are more specific details in how the external harmonies are applied in aligning the body as per the various postures found in the form.

It’s you in relationship to you, and you in relationship to the earth. Gravity is the first force we can feel. You can put yourself in alignment with this in mind. The posture itself is of less consequence than the transitions between. In the two person form, some of these ideas become more evident when contact is made, feeling how your alignment affects or is affected by the other person. Application, or rather the concepts of application inform the alignment to some degree. Prior experiences in other external arts can hinder or help this experience depending on the individual practice and understanding of the instructor.

 

[windwalker099105]

Of course, traditional karate has its theory and a bit of its own philosophy, but it's in the background of its practice and not much is made of it. It's built-in, quietly expressed in the doing, the "feel."

In my travels, I’ve found that the more traditional the practice, the less is said.
I practiced CMA for many years before Taiji and only stumbled onto Taiji while looking for ways to deepen my CMA practice.

In doing so, I found many facets that directly improved my training.
My first Taiji teacher in Hawaii was very martial-oriented.

Master Sam Kekina

I can still hear him saying "and now we use the good american right hook" in his pidgin English...
In many ways ahead of his time.

This is why you don't see karate people discussing such things as much as CMA people. Their view is more like what windwalker099 expressed: "When in reality there was nothing to figure out." We karate-ka are a simple people .

I’d disagree — it might be more fair to say this:

Karate practitioners have more commonality in their training.
They tend to discuss what they’re doing, rather than how they’re doing it.

In CMA, especially what’s labeled as “internal,” you’ll often find people discussing things they can’t do or haven’t experienced, but still feel they understand....

 

[windwalker099105]

I'm just wondering if there are more specific details in how the external harmonies are applied in aligning the body as per the various postures found in the form.

. Wei Shuren, writings on taiji...​

This might help in understand how they come into play and why it's a different idea in use..

This image shows a classic Taiji concept: your body and intent form what might be called a dynamic sphere.

Yi (intent) focuses on a point — usually your opponent’s center.

Qi flows in arcs: it draws back through your spine and spreads outward through your arms and structure.

Relax your chest and spine; power cycles through you rather than being forced by muscle.

Depending on ones development, the opponent might feel like they’re pushing into a ball — nowhere to “get in.”

Instead of chasing alignment like a pose, this is about dynamic connection and recycling energy.
The Six Harmonies support this idea: every part of your body and mind links to a single point in space.

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

. Wei Shuren, writings on taiji...​

This might help in understand how they come into play and why it's a different idea in use..

This image shows a classic Taiji concept: your body and intent form what might be called a dynamic sphere.

Yi (intent) focuses on a point — usually your opponent’s center.

Qi flows in arcs: it draws back through your spine and spreads outward through your arms and structure.

Relax your chest and spine; power cycles through you rather than being forced by muscle.

Depending on ones development, the opponent might feel like they’re pushing into a ball — nowhere to “get in.”

Instead of chasing alignment like a pose, this is about dynamic connection and recycling energy.
The Six Harmonies support this idea: every part of your body and mind links to a single point in space.

Well said.

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

. Wei Shuren, writings on taiji...​

This might help in understand how they come into play and why it's a different idea in use..

This image shows a classic Taiji concept: your body and intent form what might be called a dynamic sphere.

Yi (intent) focuses on a point — usually your opponent’s center.

Qi flows in arcs: it draws back through your spine and spreads outward through your arms and structure.

Relax your chest and spine; power cycles through you rather than being forced by muscle.

Depending on ones development, the opponent might feel like they’re pushing into a ball — nowhere to “get in.”

Instead of chasing alignment like a pose, this is about dynamic connection and recycling energy.
The Six Harmonies support this idea: every part of your body and mind links to a single point in space.

20 years ago, 6 of us punching straight into our Sifu at full power. We did it three times. The first time, he expanded like a giant rubber ball and all of us had our force returned to us. The second time, he absorbed all of it, it was like hitting a giant pillow. The third time he raised his arms in the air, it felt like hitting the spinning wheel of a moving car.

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

. Wei Shuren, writings on taiji...​

This might help in understand how they come into play and why it's a different idea in use..

This image shows a classic Taiji concept: your body and intent form what might be called a dynamic sphere.

Yi (intent) focuses on a point — usually your opponent’s center.

Qi flows in arcs: it draws back through your spine and spreads outward through your arms and structure.

Relax your chest and spine; power cycles through you rather than being forced by muscle.

Depending on ones development, the opponent might feel like they’re pushing into a ball — nowhere to “get in.”

Instead of chasing alignment like a pose, this is about dynamic connection and recycling energy.
The Six Harmonies support this idea: every part of your body and mind links to a single point in space.

20 years ago, 6 of us punching straight into our Sifu at full power. We did it three times. The first time, he expanded like a giant rubber ball and all of us had our force returned to us. The second time, he absorbed all of it, it was like hitting a giant pillow. The third time he raised his arms in the air, it felt like hitting the spinning wheel of a moving car. He never moved when we struck him.