Faye (Li) Yip's Bow stance is wrong?

[isshinryuronin]

In this system the soldiers learned to fight straight away. Much later, solo forms were taught out of necessity of people who wanted to train by themselves.....Like Johnwang said, the ancient method is for you to learn the partner drill first.

Like teaching to swim by tossing the non-swimmer into the river "straight away," soldiers do not have the luxury of spending months to learn their skill. Learning a skill quickly requires some compromise with expertise. Forms practice is not designed for this. This is not necessarily the best preferred way, but the gods of war give man little choice. Battle may come tomorrow and some rough proficiency in combat is required ASAP.

It seems the wrestling skill you're talking about was taught at the beginning of the Qing dynasty (1600's) which replaced the Ming. By the end of that century battles in northern China had more or less abated as the Qing established some stability and order. This is also about the time the Shaolin monks began to emphasize empty hand combat (as opposed to spears/halberds at which they were already proficient) and elevated it to an art/self-defense for civilian use, complete with solo forms.

The evolution of karate followed a similar path: Military/professional pirates/etc. combat > Civilian self-defense vs thieves and thugs > Sport/self-development.

Just another view of TMA using a historical context.

 

[isshinryuronin]

My teacher when he arrived said " I will train you as I was trained" and motioned for me to attack him. For next hour or so he threw me into the dirt over and over

You must have gained skill at meeting the ground in a horizonal position. Also, the important skill of getting back up.

 

[windwalker099105]

Like teaching to swim by tossing the non-swimmer into the river "straight away," soldiers do not have the luxury of spending months to learn their skill. Learning a skill quickly requires some compromise with expertise. Forms practice is not designed for this.

If they’re soldiers, they’ve already gone through a process that takes months — often years — to develop their skill sets.

“Form” practice exists for them too, just in a different context. Battle drills are essentially their “forms,” practiced, graded, and tested repeatedly to develop or refine very specific skills — not just as choreography.

This is not necessarily the best preferred way, but the gods of war give man little choice. Battle may come tomorrow and some rough proficiency in combat is required ASAP. Battle may come tomorrow and some rough proficiency in combat is required ASAP.

For most, if “battle may come tomorrow", without the necessary time in training. Tomorrow will likely be the day they die.

Soldiers spend a lot of time developing basic skill sets, then move on to AIT (Advanced Individual Training).

IME, highly specialized combat arms skills can take years to develop. The attrition rate during training is high for a reason.

You must have gained skill at meeting the ground in a horizonal position. Also, the important skill of getting back up.

, the skill was the feeling of what he was doing, experiencing one's reactions to it.....

 

[isshinryuronin]

If they’re soldiers, they’ve already gone through a process that takes months — often years — to develop their skill sets.

Soldiers spend a lot of time developing basic skill sets

The subject was 1600's China. I may be wrong, but I don't think the rank-and-file soldier then was nearly as highly trained as those today. And most of their training was likely in battle formation and weapon use. Not so much in unarmed combat.

the skill was the feeling of what he was doing

My experience with this (at near full power and speed) has been one second I'm standing and experience the entering, the next I'm on the deck with little/no awareness of what happened in between. An interesting feeling.

 

[Same Trick50]

Like teaching to swim by tossing the non-swimmer into the river "straight away," soldiers do not have the luxury of spending months to learn their skill. Learning a skill quickly requires some compromise with expertise. Forms practice is not designed for this. This is not necessarily the best preferred way, but the gods of war give man little choice. Battle may come tomorrow and some rough proficiency in combat is required ASAP.

It seems the wrestling skill you're talking about was taught at the beginning of the Qing dynasty (1600's) which replaced the Ming. By the end of that century battles in northern China had more or less abated as the Qing established some stability and order. This is also about the time the Shaolin monks began to emphasize empty hand combat (as opposed to spears/halberds at which they were already proficient) and elevated it to an art/self-defense for civilian use, complete with solo forms.

The evolution of karate followed a similar path: Military/professional pirates/etc. combat > Civilian self-defense vs thieves and thugs > Sport/self-development.

Just another view of TMA using a historical context.

The bullhornbutting”wrestling” appledog spoke of is ancien long long before Qing dynasty.
Perhaps it was practiced by military to harden up but I think it was more related as a religious ceremony thing in the times when many cultures was into bull worship

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

Application first, or solo form first?

When you train sword fight, do you want to train this first?



or do you want to train this first?

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

I actually dated a couple of dancers with bad reputation, but their application of technique was excellent!

Apologies for the cheap humor. I was just reminded of the distant past.

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

1. My long fist training is "form first and application later."
2. My SC training is "application first and form later".

I can compare both approaches and draw conclusion. IMO, method 1 can create dancers which may give MA a bad reputation.

I understand why you say this, and I agree that we don’t want dancers. I teach balance, posture, and coordination before anything else. solo forms are the last thing I teach. I believe forms are for review and refinement.

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

Like Johnwang said, the ancient method is for you to learn the partner drill first.

In the old Chinese military, there was jiao ti, the historical combat system. It evolved into the martial art known as Shuai Jiao. Jiao Ti, meaning "butting with horns," was an early form of military wrestling used by the ancient Chinese army. In this system the soldiers learned to fight straight away. Much later, solo forms were taught out of necessity of people who wanted to train by themselves.

The partner drill is always better. Anyone who tells you differently is selling something.

I tell you different, and I’m not selling anything. Military versions are to expedite training for large numbers of people, it may be expeditious, but that may not equal high quality examples of skill as a result.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Application first, or solo form first?

When you train sword fight, do you want to train this first?



or do you want to train this first?

I would rather train application first so I can better understand form. I've personally done the other way around and it is a much longer journey in learning than I would have taken had I known the difference.

When I teach now. Show Form (this is what we will talk about) -> show application (this is what we are doing and how it works includes drill practice informed by application) -> The Form is what we train when there is no one to train with -> The application is what we are training to do. -> Movement in form must be application based.

The most difficult thing I had to deal with in Training others is when they didn't have a good understanding of what a real incoming punch looks like. Drilled punches are high risk for distortions. Sparring corrects that and realigns drills to be more representative of the reality of the punch.

It's like doing forms for tennis without experiencing the dynamics involved in hitting a tennis ball.

EDIT: This is not a rejection of forms. If the teacher is quality, then I would still learn and take a long way to figure out how to apply. It's not an idea learning environment for me. But if the teacher has working knowledge the I can reverse engineer through trial and error, in a effort to discover function.

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

I would rather train application first so I can better understand form.

If we can find 100 CMA instructors, there will be at least 95 of those 100 who will teach form first and application later.

Some CMA teachers don't even teach application at all. Why?

The reasons can be the CMA teacher:

1. doesn't know application himself. He may be just a CMA for health person.
2. emphasizes Wu-De so much that he doesn't want his students to get into any fight.
3. considers application as personal secret and only wants to pass down into his own family.
4. ...

 

[Flying Crane]

If we can find 100 CMA instructors, there will be at least 95 of those 100 who will teach form first and application later.

Really? How do you know this? 95 out of 100? You have taken surveys and have data to know this to be true? Or is this simply hyperbole? Or did you simply make this up out of whole cloth, because it “feels like the truth” to you?

Some CMA teachers don't even teach application at all. Why?

Again, You know this to be true? Or you simply haven’t witnessed enough of their teaching to see it?

The reasons can be the CMA teacher:

1. doesn't know application himself. He may be just a CMA for health person.

Again, you know this to be true? Or you simply haven’t witnessed enough of their teaching to see what else is going on?

2. emphasizes Wu-De so much that he doesn't want his students to get into any fight.

Or simply recognizes the bull-s*** for what it is that people have used throughout history to justify fighting. Things like personal honor and such, that causes a person no actual harm. You want to insult me or insult my mother or insult my wife? You want to talk smack? None of us care. Say what you want, think what you want about us, it does not hurt us and poses no threat to us. It certainly is no justification for me to send you on a trip to the emergency room. That behavior will land me in front of a judge, and it isn’t worth it. My masculinity is not threatened by unretaliated smack-talk.

People get all bent out of shape over petty squabbles and perceived slights and insults, none of which represent a real threat, and they think they have the right to go over and bloody someone’s nose over it. It proves nothing other than a person has a very thin skin and is the real one who doesn’t fit within society. A loose cannon with a short fuse who makes a mountain out of a molehill.

But if there is an actual threat of imminent harm, that is a whole different story.

I would say the real message is to grow the fu** up and start to recognize the difference.

3. considers application as personal secret and only wants to pass down into his own family.

This is a relic of an earlier age, when some level of secrecy had an impact on one’s safety. I doubt there are many who still subscribe to this, at least not those teaching openly to non-family members. Someone who feels this way would likely to be teaching only family members.

 

[Appledog43]

This is a relic of an earlier age, when some level of secrecy had an impact on one’s safety. I doubt there are many who still subscribe to this, at least not those teaching openly to non-family members. Someone who feels this way would likely to be teaching only family members.

To learn a high level of kung fu, you have to have a high level of wu de. The reason is like you said, it is a relic of an earlier age.

This is a case of knowing there is something there but not knowing what it is. If you knew what it was, maybe you would understand why this is such an important thing. I truly believe that there are high levels of kung fu that nobody will teach unless you can demonstrate a high level of wu de. I've seen some of them.

I think Johnwang demonstrated a good level of wu de because he kept his mind open to the possibility of 'something else'. Well, it is 'something else', some kind of fish deep in the sea and we can only feel it's waves.

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

Really? How do you know this? 95 out of 100? You have taken surveys and have data to know this to be true?

I have trained long fist, praying mantis, Baji, Lohan, white ape, Zimen, WC, Taiji, Xing Yi, Bagua, and SC in my life. Beside SC, all the other 10 CMA systems all started with solo form first and application later. So, that's 10/11 = 91 out of 100 from my personal experience. When I wrote that post, I didn't do this calculation. I only gave estimation.

 

[Same Trick50]

About WuDe - Could WuDe as a concept actually be useless for advancement of the individual, could it as a concept be employed as a control mechanism so it may rather be restrictive than developmental ?

 

[Appledog43]

About WuDe - Could WuDe as a concept actually be useless for advancement of the individual, could it as a concept be employed as a control mechanism so it may rather be restrictive than developmental ?

No, the language is partly alchemical. If you do not have high level wu de you cannot understand high level kung fu.

「學者須先明此圖。」
"Those who would study must first understand this diagram." --Neijing Tu

TTC23 says; Those who are one with the Way are welcomed by the Way.

This is a different kind of thinking than western thinking, which takes virtues and goodness from a list of rules and separates this from daily behavior. In Chinese, you can brush your teeth with Wu De.

「喜怒哀樂之未發，謂之中。發而皆中節，謂之和。中也者，天下之大本也；和也者，天下之達道也。」

"When joy, anger, sorrow, and pleasure have not yet arisen, it is called equilibrium (zhong). When they arise and are all in due measure, it is called harmony (he). Equilibrium is the great root of the world; harmony is the universal path." (Doctrine of the Mean, Chapter 1)

This is not an analogy. It is a direct equivalence to wuji. Wuji is of the mind -- internal -- not physical. Not external. If anything external must move.

Li Yiyu writes​

一曰心靜
1. The mind is CALM.

If your mind is not calm, it will not be focused, and each movement of your hands, be it forward or back, left or right, will not be in any definite direction. Therefore your mind should be calm. At first your movement will not yet be able to come from yourself, and so you should clear your mind and let your body intuit, going along with the opponent’s movements.

Free-flowing qi is natural and unrestrained, you cannot feel it without special methods. Look for it and you will never find it because it is invisible. You cannot feel it because it created you and you are your own natural state. You would never even know it is there in your lifetime if a master didn't tell you.

 

[windwalker099105]

No, the language is partly alchemical. If you do not have high level wu de you cannot understand high level kung fu.

How do you know ?

 

[Marsha Larts]

How do you know ?

Because only someone with high level wu de could say such a thing

 

[Wing Woo Gar39]

So, which one of you fellas can pee the farthest?

 

[Marsha Larts]

So, which one of you fellas can pee the farthest?

Probably the one who stands on the words of others to show their haughty virtue

Or maybe the one who talks about himself as being the most in touch with reality