Do you need to destroy your oponente inside the dojang?

[Gnarlie]

I am sure they do not.

How are you sure? How can you know how Taekwondo is taught around the world?

Frankly, and this is based on my experiences in multiple clubs in multiple countries, there is real evidence to suggest that you haven't the faintest idea how Taekwondo is taught or how much or how little students know of sport or self defence.

Every club I have ever trained with has clearly delineated between competition work and self defence, and placed emphasis on realistic and simple core techniques with a high percentage chance of success for self defence.

Your arguments aren't supported by facts, in fact they read like Youtube comments, and as such they carry little weight here.

Gnarlie

 

[Cyriacus]

Every club I have ever trained with has clearly delineated between competition work and self defence, and placed emphasis on realistic and simple core techniques with a high percentage chance of success for self defence.

With that being said, the biggest problem ive seen is *Students* not distinguishing.

 

[Rumy73]

How are you sure? How can you know how Taekwondo is taught around the world?

Frankly, and this is based on my experiences in multiple clubs in multiple countries, there is real evidence to suggest that you haven't the faintest idea how Taekwondo is taught or how much or how little students know of sport or self defence.

Every club I have ever trained with has clearly delineated between competition work and self defence, and placed emphasis on realistic and simple core techniques with a high percentage chance of success for self defence.

Your arguments aren't supported by facts, in fact they read like Youtube comments, and as such they carry little weight here.

Gnarlie

You are equally anecdotal and confuse long windedness with cogency.

 

[Gnarlie]

With that being said, the biggest problem ive seen is *Students* not distinguishing.

That's the student's problem. We don't have to spoon feed people if we show and tell them, that's enough. Again my experiences are that people are clear on the differences.

Gnarlie

 

[Gnarlie]

You are equally anecdotal and confuse long windedness with cogency.

I'm not arguing from the position of making a generalisation about the whole art. You are. I stated my experiences, which contradict your generalisation, ergo you and your generalisation are wrong.

Please illustrate how this argument is not cogent.

PS If you find a couple of paragraphs long winded, maybe you should stick to the funny pages.

Gnarlie

 

[Rumy73]

That's the student's problem. We don't have to spoon feed people if we show and tell them, that's enough. Again my experiences are that people are clear on the differences.

Gnarlie

Totally disagree. You should talk application and limitation.

 

[Rumy73]

I'm not arguing from the position of making a generalisation about the whole art. You are. I stated my experiences, which contradict your generalisation, ergo you and your generalisation are wrong.

Please illustrate how this argument is not cogent.

PS If you find a couple of paragraphs long winded, maybe you should stick to the funny pages.

Gnarlie

Nice try. Worthy of a chuckle.

 

[Gorilla]

I am sure they do not.

Oh!!! I stand corrected!!! Apparently you are the all knowing arbiter of all that is Martial Arts!

I will go back to my quest to know the difference!

 

[Gnarlie]

Totally disagree. You should talk application and limitation.

What part of 'show and tell them' do you not understand?

There's been a clear line between practical applied 'Hoshinsool' and 'everything else' in all of the schools I've trained at. Non-physical aspects like mentality and strategy were also covered.

Gnarlie

 

[Rumy73]

I understand that schools, some that is, may actually delineate between art and self defense. Now whether that latter training is adequate for one to defend himself is another matter. Frankly, the lady who is the library worker has likely not been told that kneeing a man in the groin does not always result in him in the ground. More often it ends with a woman having her faced bashed. Real violence is fast, unpredictable and ugly. People bite, scratch, cut and do all sorts of nasty things. Reacting when taken with fear is not easy as the pajama world suggests. Committing to really hit someone else, as in to hurt him, takes something deeply seated. Real defense begins with awareness and the second line is using verbal skills to diffuse things, if possible. Dojangs, generally do not talk about these strategies/outcomes, nor do they tend to mention much about force law. Giving a student some locks and throws is not sufficiently equipping him. My guess is the retort will be it is up to the student, but if a school advertises self defense, failing to explain SD broadly is lacking.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Teaching the difference, learning the difference, knowing the difference and being able to implement it are different animals. Would you say people have decent swimming ability if you taught them all the theory and motion but they never got in the water? IMNSHO the same applies when it comes to SD and hand techniques. If the student never does it in live training exercises, knowledge isn't gonna help.

 

[granfire]

Teaching the difference, learning the difference, knowing the difference and being able to implement it are different animals. Would you say people have decent swimming ability if you taught them all the theory and motion but they never got in the water? IMNSHO the same applies when it comes to SD and hand techniques. If the student never does it in live training exercises, knowledge isn't gonna help.

but you don't throw them in with Great Whites to learn survival tactics...

 

[aaradia]

I understand that schools, some that is, may actually delineate between art and self defense. Now whether that latter training is adequate for one to defend himself is another matter. Frankly, the lady who is the library worker has likely not been told that kneeing a man in the groin does not always result in him in the ground. More often it ends with a woman having her faced bashed..

My online name is aaradia. Much shorter than typing out the "lady who is the library worker."

Frankly, You would be wrong. You really shouldn't make assumptions. You know almost nothing about my training.

I have been taught that it is one of many targets. That you should never count on any one hit succeeding. Be prepared to keep fighting until you achieve your goal, then run away as soon as you are able to.

I would however like to see your stats to back up that it ends up more often with a woman's face bashed. How do you know that is true? I want to see your basis for this claim.

As I have already told you repeatedly, my school teaches awareness and verbal diffusion of a situation. They also teach that real situations are to use your words "fast, unpredictable, and ugly."

 

[Gnarlie]

We can and do teach, learn and drill techniques, tactics and strategies for self defence. We also cover reasonable force.

More importantly, students are encouraged to develop themselves, their own knowledge, abilities and character. It's the student taking responsibility for their own progress that is of greatest value in determining their likelihood of survival in a self defence situation. They have to want it.

It doesn't matter how much you show and tell someone, or what you try to drill into them, if they don't really care. You can take a horse to water.

We do everything we can up to the limit of reasonable practicability.

Gnarlie

 

[Rumy73]

We can and do teach, learn and drill techniques, tactics and strategies for self defence. We also cover reasonable force.

More importantly, students are encouraged to develop themselves, their own knowledge, abilities and character. It's the student taking responsibility for their own progress that is of greatest value in determining their likelihood of survival in a self defence situation. They have to want it.

It doesn't matter how much you show and tell someone, or what you try to drill into them, if they don't really care. You can take a horse to water.

We do everything we can up to the limit of reasonable practicability.

Gnarlie

Students at your school are blessed with good training. Good to hear that it is being done well.

 

[Rumy73]

My online name is aaradia. Much shorter than typing out the "lady who is the library worker."

Frankly, You would be wrong. You really shouldn't make assumptions. You know almost nothing about my training.

I have been taught that it is one of many targets. That you should never count on any one hit succeeding. Be prepared to keep fighting until you achieve your goal, then run away as soon as you are able to.

I would however like to see your stats to back up that it ends up more often with a woman's face bashed. How do you know that is true? I want to see your basis for this claim.

As I have already told you repeatedly, my school teaches awareness and verbal diffusion of a situation. They also teach that real situations are to use your words "fast, unpredictable, and ugly."

Statistics for every kind of scenario are not always available. However, from stats culminated by the FBI, we know that woman are overwhelmingly in danger of violence from men they know rather than strangers. In domestic violence, women are overwhelmingly victimized than males. In cases that I was intimate with, women who fought back were bloodied much worse.

 

[sopraisso]

It is funny to see the course this thread has taken, from the original question to whether students understand or not the difference between self-defense and what is teached in their classes.
I would say that in a great part of academies in my city most students don't have a clue about the difference between self-defense and what they are being teached. Still talking about my city, much of this is fault of the schools, as they advertise in terms like "builds health and teaches sports and self-defense skills" while in most instances it's basically sports, with sometimes "martial applications" completely out of reality. Even when no teacher talks about self-defense in classes (actually, here most mention it at times), the idea of "fighting in the street" is all over in conversations with students.
I couldn't say for sure if this happens in most schools of the world or of particular countries, but probably this happens in a relevant number of schools all around, be them the majority or not.

 

[aaradia]

Statistics for every kind of scenario are not always available. However, from stats culminated by the FBI, we know that woman are overwhelmingly in danger of violence from men they know rather than strangers. In domestic violence, women are overwhelmingly victimized than males. In cases that I was intimate with, women who fought back were bloodied much worse.

So, to be clear, you don't actually have any basis for saying most women who use a groin kick in a self defense situation get bashed in the face more often? Just a bit of antecdotal experience from people you know? How many people is that?

So first, you assume something about my training with no basis. (False assumptions about what my school teaches about groin strikes.) Then you try and back up your straw man statement with a claim you can't back up?

BTW, Bringing me into a thread I hadn't even posted on?