Why so much pading?

[Manny]

Why tkdoings have to use su much pading or full coverage with safety gear equipment? Are we a bunch of sissies? Back in mid.80's we sparr inside dojang using nothing but maybe just the shin pads or a cup but that's all, yes we use the hogu but only in competition. Today we use the full equipment (helmet,hogu,mouth guard,elbow and forearm pads, some kind of silly gloves,shin pads and instep pads, a groing protector) even for doing the class!!! Yes the other day I saw all the pewees using all the equipment and they were doing kicking techs and when I ask sabonim she told me, because she wanted the kids to get use to to the full equipment!!!!

What I am seeing is that we are taking care so much of the kids that if they don't use the equipment they don't want to sparr because of the pain of get kick or punch or what ever.

I am very angry and very worried of waht we are doing!!

We practice a martial for god sake!!

El Manny.

 

[sfs982000]

I think a big part of it now a days is the liability issue with someone getting hurt. Likewise when I first started training back in the early 80's padding was minimal and contact was a lot harder in my opinion.

 

[MAist25]

I also think its a big liability issue and instructors dont want to see their students get hurt, because its not good for business. However, I think this is a load of crap... When I trained in Muay Thai, we trained very hard, lots of contact, with only shin guards, gloves, a cup, and mouthpiece. Every once in a while someone gets bloodied up, but thats part of martial arts. I dont understand why kickboxing, Muay Thai, boxing gyms, etc. never have a problem with this sort of training, but traditional martial arts do. This is of course a generalization, but walk into any TMA school and you're most likely going to see minimal contact, maximum protective gear.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

We practice a martial for god sake!!

Mi jefe, at my last testing I was going to spar a 14 year old girl, so I just put on a chest pad. As I was going to the floor, I was told to put all the equipment on. A few minutes later, on the floor, the master tells me we will just do very light contact, slow sparring. I foresaw that...so why all the padding?

 

[Jaeimseu]

Despite our rosy outlook on how we used to train in the "good old days," I think we generally train much smarter now, even if it seems "sissified." Safety gear makes sparring accessible to more people, not just "tough" guys.

From a marketing standpoint, kids like stuff and business owners like to sell stuff.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I started in the days of bare knuckle sparring. Yes, it was more "real". There were also injuries that meant people didn't get to spar as often. There were also people who lost out on the non-tough-guy aspects of the Arts because they didn't like going home with a bloody nose.

 

[granfire]

A lot of people have day jobs and can't afford to get hurt playing.

And we learned more about concussions in recent years.
(ok, this is tracking this off topic, but here is a thought: It's not exactly news that with our constant quest to make playgrounds safer we are creating kids who are actually more accident prone because they never learned how to fall. You think there is a correlation between more serious accidents and lack of bounce power?0

 

[MAist25]

A lot of people have day jobs and can't afford to get hurt playing.

And we learned more about concussions in recent years.
(ok, this is tracking this off topic, but here is a thought: It's not exactly news that with our constant quest to make playgrounds safer we are creating kids who are actually more accident prone because they never learned how to fall. You think there is a correlation between more serious accidents and lack of bounce power?0

So how come guys who train in muay thai can train with hard contact and minimal gear and still get to work in the morning, yet people in other styles cant....

 

[Jaeimseu]

So how come guys who train in muay thai can train with hard contact and minimal gear and still get to work in the morning, yet people in other styles cant....

I don't think the typical Muay Thai student and the typical Taekwondo student are the same people. I suspect there are several million more people learning Taekwondo, and fighting is not a priority for a large number of them.

 

[Earl Weiss]

We used to do a lot of Stupid Stuff. In the NHL Golaies did not wear face masks and players did not wear helmets. IMO the purpose of the helmet is not so much to protect the head from a punch or kick as it is to protect it when it hits the floor.
I'd rather wear a mouthguard which is relatively cheap compared to dental work.it might save me.
We seem to manage OK without chest protectors.
Trained without shinpads for a while, got tired of icing my shins after sparring. .
Even pro MMA guys will do sparring with Shin pads, and Boxers spar with headgear.
"Typical Muay Thai"? How many hard core aged 7-15 spar hard without pading? How many age 40+?

 

[TrueJim]

Safety gear makes sparring accessible to more people, not just "tough" guys.

As a short, pudgy, old guy...I agree. In class, I'm often paired against tall, athletic, young, muscular guys (because I'm the only short, pudgy, old guy in our school). I'm thinking of one episode in particular last year, when my opponent literally lifted me off the floor with a roundhouse kick. I went flying! But I was able to get back up again and resume...I don't think I would have been able to do that if I hadn't been wrapped up like the Michelin Tire Man.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So how come guys who train in muay thai can train with hard contact and minimal gear and still get to work in the morning, yet people in other styles cant....

That could suggest that Muay Thai is not as effective as those other styles.

 

[sfs982000]

I always felt that using less padding we not only had to spar smarter, but also it forced us to utilize more control of our technique. I do understand with liability issues and whatnot, but a lot of times it feels like I'm sparring with a sumo suit on with all the padding. During point sparring I've had points called on me and I never felt any contact at all.

 

[Manny]

Which one do you like the most? the fisrt fight ot the second fight?...

Manny

 

[Manny]

I would like to do sparring in the dojang using only protective padas in hands and shin/inestep pads, that's all that one need, and yes using some control with good force that's all. I don't like the chest/vest protector, don't like the helmet, don't like the forearm pads, I like to sparr with the minimum proptectio cause in the street you are not telling the bd guy(s) ..Wait I'm gona put my pads to fight you.

Manny

 

[Tez3]

I don't think the typical Muay Thai student and the typical Taekwondo student are the same people. I suspect there are several million more people learning Taekwondo, and fighting is not a priority for a large number of them.

In the days coming up to a fight they actually spar less hard so as to minimise any chance of injuries and the cancellation of fights.

 

[MAist25]

I don't think the typical Muay Thai student and the typical Taekwondo student are the same people. I suspect there are several million more people learning Taekwondo, and fighting is not a priority for a large number of them.

I completely agree with you, I was hoping someone would bring this up. This isnt a good thing, in my opinion. TKD kept lowering standards in order to make TKD more "accessible" to more people a.k.a. make more money.... The vast majority of the MT guys I trained with had no interest in fighting. However, when you compare a MT program to a TKD program, like you said, you typically see very different things. The MT guys are in good shape, tough, etc. The reason for this is because when you go to a MT school you have 2 options: Quit and go to an easier school or toughen up. They do not change the way they do things for the sake of worrying about losing students. And for this reason, MT schools are packed from wall to wall with people who look like martial artists. I have yet to see a TKD school with the same caliber of martial artist, simply due to the fact that we are attracting "different" people. We are attracting the people who are looking for something a little "easier."

 

[Jaeimseu]

I completely agree with you, I was hoping someone would bring this up. This isnt a good thing, in my opinion. TKD kept lowering standards in order to make TKD more "accessible" to more people a.k.a. make more money.... The vast majority of the MT guys I trained with had no interest in fighting. However, when you compare a MT program to a TKD program, like you said, you typically see very different things. The MT guys are in good shape, tough, etc. The reason for this is because when you go to a MT school you have 2 options: Quit and go to an easier school or toughen up. They do not change the way they do things for the sake of worrying about losing students. And for this reason, MT schools are packed from wall to wall with people who look like martial artists. I have yet to see a TKD school with the same caliber of martial artist, simply due to the fact that we are attracting "different" people. We are attracting the people who are looking for something a little "easier."

Everyone always brings up money, but money is not the only reason to include all kinds of people. Korea views taekwondo as a cultural product. One of the missions of Kukkiwon is to spread Korean culture. I'm guessing that taekwondo is or was the only thing many people know about Korea.

As for the MT students looking like martial artists, I think that's great. But I'm betting that a far higher percentage of MT students "look" like martial artists before they ever step foot into a MT school than the average person walking into a dojang for the first time.

When you say many MT students aren't interested in fighting, do you mean competitive fighting? I find it strange that gyms are packed wall to wall with people doing full contact sparring with no pads who aren't interested in fighting.

I would agree that the average MT student is tougher than the average TKD student. I don't think TKD needs to apologize for being inclusive of everyone. There are plenty of tough guys in taekwondo, but there's room for everyone else, too.

 

[TrueJim]

Everyone always brings up money, but money is not the only reason to include all kinds of people.

There are so many things in your post that I agree with. Let's start with this one. Do you remember those old Calgon television commercials? The wife asks at the end of the ad, "Ancient Chinese secret huh!?" I feel like so many people (at least here in the US) - raised on old episodes of the Kung Fu television series and great old Bruce Lee movies (not to detract any from either of those two awesome things!) - want to treat martial arts like it's some Ancient Chinese secret. The perception seems to be that when money intersects with the martial art, the martial art is somehow diminished.

Look, I know there are tons of unscrupulous McDojos out there that seem to be in it only for the money, but there are also plenty of "scrupulous" schools too that do happen to make a pretty good income and also happen to teach a lot of kids. I don't think there's anything wrong with either of those things. If taekwondo is a -do - a path, a way of life - then it seems to me that part of that way of life ought to be about being success in all aspects of your life: sport, business, family, community, etc. That's what makes it a -do. There's no shame in running a prosperous school, as long as you're teaching good taekwondo.

So I don't think taekwondo is inclusive because that's what makes money. I think taekwondo is inclusive because (a) General Choi practically gave his entire life over to making taekwondo be popular worldwide, and (b) following that, the KTA/Kukkiwon/WTF likewise continued to strive to make taekwondo be a popular, inclusive, worldwide activity.

Example: para-taekwondo is now going to be included in the 2020 Paralympics. I don't think the WTF made that happen because it's a money-maker. I think the WTF made that happen because they really really really want taekwondo to be inclusive. Likewise ITF promotes its own brand of special-needs taekwondo for disabled athletes. Again...inclusive. I don't think the ITF is doing that to make money.

(Para-Taekwondo - Taekwondo Wiki)

That having been said, I have seen individual MMA, MT, BJJ schools with special needs programs. So being inclusive isn't unique to just taekwondo...but my sense is it's a lot more commonplace in taekwondo, especially since it's promoted at the very highest levels of the art.

Korea views taekwondo as a cultural product. One of the missions of Kukkiwon is to spread Korean culture. I'm guessing that taekwondo is or was the only thing many people know about Korea.

And that's another great point. From the standpoint of Korea, so much of their cultural heritage was almost wiped-out by the 1910-1945 occupation. If the occupation had gone on for a couple more decades (like, imagine if it had started in 1890), one wonders if there would be much uniquely Korean culture left anywhere in the world at all. Then on top of that, during the last half of the century, you have Communism in the north, and autocracies in the south (until 1988) -- let's face it, during the 20th Century, traditional Korean culture took a real hammering! So now Korea makes a huge effort to both renew their traditions and export those traditions to the world - and who can blame them? If my traditional culture had been almost wiped-out, I'd probably put a lot of energy into restoring it too. And I'd spread seeds of that culture as far and wide as I could, to make sure it never dies out again!

Example: the Kukkiwon (and I believe the Taekwondowon as well) is ultimately sponsored by the Korean government's Ministry for Culture, Sports, and Tourism. The word culture is even in the name!

(Welcome to the website of the Ministry of Culture Sports and Tourism of the Republic of Korea.)

As for the MT students looking like martial artists, I think that's great. But I'm betting that a far higher percentage of MT students "look" like martial artists before they ever step foot into a MT school than the average person walking into a dojang for the first time.

And you make another great point! I too am inclined to believe that people who are drawn to arts like Muay Thai are probably going to be folks who are primarily interested in the combat aspects of the art, and there's nothing wrong with that! As you say, they're probably more fit to begin with. I'd wager that Muay Thai as an art probably places less emphasis on being inclusive. I don't know that Muay Thai schools or associations put a lot of effort into para-athletes, special needs athletes, older athletes, very young athletes, etc. Maybe they do, I don't know. Taekwondo though certainly does. So it stands to reason that the "average" taekwondo athlete may be less athletic than the "average" Muay Thai athlete -- but that's what comes with being inclusive.

I would agree that the average MT student is tougher than the average TKD student. I don't think TKD needs to apologize for being inclusive of everyone. There are plenty of tough guys in taekwondo, but there's room for everyone else, too.

At the school my son and I attend, all the instructors are Korean, and they're all Kukkiwon trained. I'm constantly struck by how much they don't treat taekwondo like it's Calgon's Ancient Chinese secret, or like any of us are likely to be a bar-fight any time soon. (Personally, 54 years and counting...still never been in a bar fight.) Our instructors treat taekwondo like something we do because it's fun, it makes us healthy, it improves our flexibility, agility, balance, coordination, endurance, etc....and oh by the way if you do it well you can hit people with it really really really hard. That mindset is definitely very inclusive I think, and as you say, personally...I don't think taekwondo needs to apologize for being inclusive.

I think it's great that there's a pretty good martial art out there that really anybody can enjoy: young or old, able-bodied or otherwise, already fit or just on-the-path...that's what the -do part means, I think.

 

[drop bear]

I completely agree with you, I was hoping someone would bring this up. This isnt a good thing, in my opinion. TKD kept lowering standards in order to make TKD more "accessible" to more people a.k.a. make more money.... The vast majority of the MT guys I trained with had no interest in fighting. However, when you compare a MT program to a TKD program, like you said, you typically see very different things. The MT guys are in good shape, tough, etc. The reason for this is because when you go to a MT school you have 2 options: Quit and go to an easier school or toughen up. They do not change the way they do things for the sake of worrying about losing students. And for this reason, MT schools are packed from wall to wall with people who look like martial artists. I have yet to see a TKD school with the same caliber of martial artist, simply due to the fact that we are attracting "different" people. We are attracting the people who are looking for something a little "easier."

I have but they are fight oriented tkd.