Culture/Religion necessary?

[jasonbrinn]

How do you feel about the necessity of cultural and/or religious practices or overtones within the martial arts? Are those practices important to learning the art? Could these practices be removed and result in positive training results?

 

[Steve]

Depends on whether the study of the culture or the preservation of traditions is considered of value by the practitioners.

At the very least, the culture of the person training will inform the culture of the style being trained. For example, BJJ is from Japan and has made it's way around the world. Even over the last 20 years, the culture of BJJ continues to evolve as a result of the fusion of the culture it's coming from and the culture adopting it. BJJ in America has a lot in common with BJJ in Brazil; however, they are not the same because America has a strong wrestling culture, and we just... do things differently. BJJ in the UK is also different. Lots in common, but not exactly the same.

Even where culture is valued and strictly adhered to, it will be different when it's studied in America vs Asia vs somewhere else.

 

[oftheherd1]

I suppose there may be some martial arts where religion is part and parcel of the art. I bring a desire not to fight, faith, and prayer/meditation from my Christianity to my practice of hapkido. But I have seen many practitioners who brought nothing recognizable as religious and were still quite skillful Hapkido practitioners. So is it necessary? I guess not, or not so much. I think in my case my practice has been enhanced. How much? I don't know.

As to culture, at least with oriental martial arts, there will usually be some practices in the art. I don't know that they are necessary, but they certainly don't hurt.

In general, I think religion and culture are not so necessary. I am sure many will disagree. So you just have to take all the answers and see how they fit for you.

 

[Carol]

I agree with Steve. Cultural and historical information can lend a good deal to understanding the art, but I think it is possible to learn how to fight without the it. I happen to prefer the cultural additions, as long as the class remains a martial arts class and not a history class.

There are some arts that have deep links to religion. Silat was practiced in Indonesia in pre-Islamic times, but the Mughals adopted Silat in to their fighting and religious practices. Now, a strong majority of practitioners follow the two together, but as long as the appropriate teacher is available, I think it is possible to train in Silat without the Islamic practices. Here in the US, I think it is more common to find martial arts associated with Christian ministry or evangelical groups (e.g. Karate for Christ) than it is to find schools which follow religious practices from the art's home country.

 

[decepticon]

I think that it is certainly possible to learn to fight without having a particular cultural or religious underpinning. However, I feel that when we attain some proficiency and actually gain the power to inflict harm/pain or even death, many people have to integrate that with their core values and beliefs. In my opinion, that is a main avenue via which religion and culture become associated with martial arts. Another factor is the large amount of time required to become adept in martial arts. Some religions do not permit any nonreligious factor to consume as much of the adherent's time as martial arts does and would therefore be incompatible.

Based on my religious background, I would have not been comfortable studying a martial art that had a strong religious component that contradicted my beliefs. I also would have been uncomfortable with one that focused on a particularly violent culture of using the skills in an offensive manner rather than a defensive one or one that devalued life. After I got into my training, I did quite a bit of soul searching to decide whether or not I would ever be able to hit anyone with the intent to kill. I studied religious texts. I prayed. I arrived at my decision and I'm still here.

I suppose culture and religion are present in my martial arts class, in the form of the belief in the right to survive and the desire to protect the weak. However, there is no overt presence of any particular religion or ritual practices. I suppose someone could learn to fight without those core beliefs, but I can barely imagine where their motivation would come from.

 

[pgsmith]

I believe that it is entirely decided by what art you are studying. Carol said that it's possible to learn how to fight without it but, by the same token, it's also possible to learn how to fight without martial arts at all. Of course, the end result of most martial arts training is not simply to 'learn how to fight'. If it was, there would be a lot fewer schools and arts in existence. Some arts, and schools within an art, will be culturally intensive. A few will even be religiously intensive. Those that are interested in that will seek out those schools the same way that those interested in ring fighting will seek out MMA schools, and those interested in Olympic fighting will seek out TKD or Judo schools. Everyone has a different reason for pursuing martial arts training. This means that any blanket statement is going to be wrong in some instances, and every blanket question, like the one posed by the OP, is going to be answererd "sometimes".

In the Japanese koryu which I am most familiar with, you cannot learn the art without the cultural references. Remove those and it becomes something else entirely.

 

[Big Don]

the Mughals

Think that is where Rowling got the term "Muggles?"

 

[Ken Morgan]

I don’t know Paul, I think if you do a direct translation of all the Japanese phrases into English in the JSA, you could train well enough to be as good as any “traditionally” trained student. Call Mae, Front, and Migi, Right. Where is the potential detriment in physical ability? We don’t become better students because of the arts history or that it is exotic, we become better students because we practice swinging swords. You can only judge a person’s ability by what they bring to the floor, if they have been diligent and honest in their training, that will show on the floor regardless of what you call the kata.

 

[Buka]

Necessary? No.

 

[Carol]

Think that is where Rowling got the term "Muggles?"

My gosh....I bet you're right! Mughal/Moghal.......sounds a heckuva lot like Muggle

 

[pgsmith]

I don’t know Paul, I think if you do a direct translation of all the Japanese phrases into English in the JSA, you could train well enough to be as good as any “traditionally” trained student. Call Mae, Front, and Migi, Right. Where is the potential detriment in physical ability? We don’t become better students because of the arts history or that it is exotic, we become better students because we practice swinging swords. You can only judge a person’s ability by what they bring to the floor, if they have been diligent and honest in their training, that will show on the floor regardless of what you call the kata.

The original question was about the necessity of the cultural overtones within an art. Seiza is definitely a cultural reference since it is not a posture we adopt in the west. If you no longer do any of the seiza kata, are you still doing the same art? Wearing the sword on the left side, whether you're right handed or not, is also a cultural reference. If you were to wear your sword in the other side because you were left handed, would you still be doing the same art? Reiho is very much a cultural reference. However, if you eliminate all of the reiho, you are definititely not doing the same art. You could still learn how to swing a sword properly, but it would be something other than what you are practicing now. Since you can't remove those cultural references without changing the art into something else, that makes them a necessary part of it. So, my answer to the OP was that in some instances, the cultural overtones are indeed a necessary part of the art. ​

 

[WC_lun]

I think understanding the religious/cultural aspects of a system lends towards understanding the art more. For instance, if you understand the Buhdhist and 1650's China influence on Wing Chun, you might understand the source of the some of the principles to a greater degree. However, nothing substitutes doing. If you train, you'll understand more than if you look at the historical influences.

I do find it odd when an instructor will try to marry his own religious beliefs onto a system that came from elsewhere. To each his own, but things like "Karate for Christ" or Muay Tai for Muslims just make me raise an eyebrow. Makes me think someone is trying too hard.

 

[Chris Li]

How do you feel about the necessity of cultural and/or religious practices or overtones within the martial arts? Are those practices important to learning the art? Could these practices be removed and result in positive training results?

Depends...

In Aikido, for example, it's very difficult to understand anything that Morihei Ueshiba was talking about without a fair amount of cultural background to understand the context. Without that, or someone who can explain the same things in other terms (there aren't many) it's going to be difficult to go too deep.

Best,

Chris

 

[elder999]

Depends...

In Aikido, for example, it's very difficult to understand anything that Morihei Ueshiba was talking about without a fair amount of cultural background to understand the context. Chris

And, in that instance, sometimes even then:

I am the Universe.
When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you.

 

[Jenna]

Depends...

In Aikido, for example, it's very difficult to understand anything that Morihei Ueshiba was talking about without a fair amount of cultural background to understand the context. Without that, or someone who can explain the same things in other terms (there aren't many) it's going to be difficult to go too deep.

Best,

Chris

so you would say u cannot do proper Aikido without knowing religous contexts in the bakcground of O'Sensei?

 

[Supra Vijai]

so you would say u cannot do proper Aikido without knowing religous contexts in the bakcground of O'Sensei?

It's a bit like that with our arts... sure you can do the physical technique and leave it at that as nearly everyone starting out does but to understand the reasons for why certain kamae are used or the correct way to hold them, there is a deeper religious/philosophical basis. For example, with things like Jumonji no kamae or Doko no kamae the thumbs point straight up (to heaven) signifying a free uninterrupted flow of energy - based in religious thought. Another interesting thing about studying the Takamatsuden arts is that within different schools, you get different names for the same thing or conversely, different things with the same (or similar) name so having some understanding of terminology as it is used in each system (and why) is a big help!

I guess the answer is a bit contentious because while one can argue that no, knowing the language and culture is not an integral part of being able to perform the techniques of a martial art, they are a large part of what makes an "art" in the first place and that understanding is what in the end separates the martial artist studying a particular system or style from a fighter who "knows a few moves"... besides, it's a tad awkward if after training for a while, you still stare blankly when told to adopt a particular posture

 

[Chris Li]

so you would say u cannot do proper Aikido without knowing religous contexts in the bakcground of O'Sensei?

Yes and no.

In order to understand what he was talking about, yes. The religious elements in his speech quite often contained solid technical information, but without understanding that you would miss the information.

OTOH, if you have someone who can explain the same information to you without the religious context then the answer would be no. The catch is that there are actually very few people in Aikido who can do that.

Best,

Chris

 

[Gentle Fist]

culture and history - yes, religion - no

 

[Chris Li]

culture and history - yes, religion - no

Again, applying to Aikido only - much of Ueshiba's explanation was wrapped in religious terminology. If you don't understand where he's coming from you just won't get it, guaranteed, unless somebody else can explain it to you.

FWIW, there are a number of Koryu in Japan that wrap their more esoteric teachings in religious terms.

Best,

Chris

 

[Gentle Fist]

Again, applying to Aikido only - much of Ueshiba's explanation was wrapped in religious terminology. If you don't understand where he's coming from you just won't get it, guaranteed, unless somebody else can explain it to you.

FWIW, there are a number of Koryu in Japan that wrap their more esoteric teachings in religious terms.

Best,

Chris

I was speaking more in terms of martial arts in general... But I can see how Aikido requires both...