Are forms necessary for TKD?

[philwhite]

Just do your own thing. If someone wants a kkw tkd school then thats what they’ll join. Most people are not crazy about marital arts like we are. My wife reminds me of this all the time. A large percentage of students will join a school because it’s there and not because of its lineage.

I say this because you have a tkd black belt, teach, and you do bjj. If you claimed to be a ninja I might think otherwise.

 

[philwhite]

The glue talk is weird. You know as a graduate of a strip mall sport karate school, you sometimes have to recognize that where you trained and their history isn’t the only way.

I am referring to myself btw…

 

[Earl Weiss133 33]

So then what is TKD? What are those ingredients? Who decides what those are for the art as a whole, and not just for the organization of ITF, KKW, ATA, MDK, etc.?



By this logic every martial art with forms should be called Kung Fu.

Who decides? Great question and as I said near the beginning of the thread before an intelligent discussion can be had participants need to first agree on how terms are defined. There is no consensus on what is or is not T K D in general. (Or a "Martial Art" for that matter.) I don't expect there will ever be one. One person on this thread gave us their idea. and I suggested others.

As far as your comment about certain logic making every art Kung Fu - my opinion would be no - just as anything with kicks and punches having some link / lineage to some Korean being called T K D would be a stretch even so much as the MDK founder rejecting the name and now some who claim to use that system adopting the moniker.

As far as Tk-D goes it's founder provided the composition:

Five Interconnected Elements (for the Tekwon)

• • Fundamental Movements: The basic building blocks of individual technique, stances, blocks, punches, and kicks.
  • Dallyon: The continuous process of conditioning and toughening the body's attacking and blocking tools.
  • Patterns (Tul): Pre-arranged sequences of movements against imaginary opponents that test balance, breath control, and power.
  • Sparring (Matsogi): Live application of learned techniques against a real, moving opponent.
  • Self-Defense (Bang-Eau-Gi): Spontaneous reactions and practical applications against sudden grabs, strikes, or weapon attacks.

The phases are so tightly knit that a practitioner flows seamlessly from one to the next, as proficiency in basics feeds into patterns, which validate sparring and self-defense.

And the of course you have the - "Do"

I will leave it to others to provide the composition of
T K D, Tkd etc.

 

[Earl Weiss133 33]

But even then, the name Tae Bo comes from Tae Kwon Do and Boxing. So he's essentially saying it's more than TKD, not less than TKD.

And, this was intended primarily for fitness. It's not built around sparring or self-defense. So if you are saying it's removed from TKD (which I disagree), then it's even further removed from TKD than what I am discussing in this thread.

"Built around" is an interesting term. I would not say it's more - I would say it is less because it is purely solo practice of moves for exercise. . I would term it a martial exercise with a catchy name.

 

[Earl Weiss133 33]

Remove a piece and the student will no longer be put in the same place.

Interesting analogy. I submit you remove forms and you have removed a fundamental piece.

 

[skribs136 156]

The question then must be asked: what is actually lost by removing the pre-arranged patterns?

 

[philwhite]

The question then must be asked: what is actually lost by removing the pre-arranged patterns?

What is the goal of your program? If its self defence, sparring, or mma oriented then I'd say nothing is lost. I personally don't see any useful application of forms on fighting. Making a kick look pretty is far different than making a kick efffective.

IIRC WT says TKD is an ancient Korean art that is 1000s of years old. This is a straight up fairytale. So I really wouldn't worry about if you are teaching to the letter of the law.

I also find it annoying to teach bad techniques from form that are not practical in self defense of sport fighting. Students, especially younger ones, get very confused about why you are teaching movements in different ways that don't align.

I hate teaching hands down punches. I think its one of the dumbest concepts ever. I don't buy into bunkai explanations where a punch is a throw etc. I think most of this is crap. It does look good in form but thats about it. To each their own.

 

[skribs136 156]

I hate teaching hands down punches. I think its one of the dumbest concepts ever. I don't buy into bunkai explanations where a punch is a throw etc. I think most of this is crap. It does look good in form but thats about it. To each their own.

I do find in grappling that keeping your hands out of reach of your opponent is often a good idea.

While I haven't done much MMA, I can see how the concept would apply in a situation where you want to punch and the other person wants to grapple.

 

[isshinryuronin26 26]

What is the goal of your program? If its self defence, sparring, or mma oriented then I'd say nothing is lost. I personally don't see any useful application of forms on fighting.

Since this topic is tagged in the Korean MA/TKD forum, I agree with your assesment. Forms have taken on a different purpose such forms competition, existing only to be performed (or even no real practical purpose other than vestigial tradition) in much of that MA genre.

The further one goes back in karate history, the more relevant forms become to self-defense fighting. They were not developed for competitive MA skills. As such, those branches stressing the sport or exercise aspects of the art had little need for much of what the old forms contain and edited them out or just let them just fade away from atrophy.

Making a kick look pretty is far different than making a kick efffective.

The old Okinawan forms do not look "pretty" and for them to do well in open competition they have to be modified to fit the modern conception of beauty. Sort of like a woman wearing heels, make-up and a push-up bra to appear attractive. It's nice to look at but says nothing of who she really is.

The glue talk is weird

I sort of like wab25's term. There has to be something, or more commonly, a few things, that uniquely holds a specific style together. I don't know about the different TKD variants, but to use my style as an example:

Okinawan karate in general
Upright stance, not very deep with 50/50 weight distribution
Shorter range low snap kicks
Grabbing and pulling the opponent's arm

Specific to Isshinryu
Vertical punch
Blocking with the flat of the forearm

All the above combine to make Isshinryu Isshinryu.

 

[isshinryuronin26 26]

I don't buy into bunkai explanations where a punch is a throw

You have it backwards. The punch is not a throw - the throw looks like a punch. Again referring to the ancestral Okinawan kata from which many Japanese and Korean forms are based on, not much effort was put into making the application of the move obvious. In fact, the opposite.

One cannot judge a single move in isolation. It must be seen in context with the proceeding move for clues - is there a step, pivot or other more subtle move that makes the throw application actually work?

Sometimes there is a block with the hand in a fist, but in application the fist opens into a grab which may not be shown in the form. Add in the step/pivot and additional arm motion (which may look like a double punch or block) and an effective throw/takedown results. Such things can be found in our Kusanku, seisan and naihanci/(tekki/cheolgi) forms.

Over time these other subtle moves' original purpose is forgotten or have disappeared leaving only what seems like a punch or other basic move, or something that has no practical purpose at all, especially in sparring.

 

[isshinryuronin26 26]

I do find in grappling that keeping your hands out of reach of your opponent is often a good idea.

Doesn't this also keep the opponent's hands out of your reach? If both used this strategy it would be a very boring match.

 

[skribs136 156]

Doesn't this also keep the opponent's hands out of your reach? If both used this strategy it would be a very boring match.

It depends on the situation. One concept in general in BJJ is "t-rex arms". This applies both in standup to prevent your opponent from getting an easy arm drag, duck-under, or Judo throw. But it also applies on the ground. Keeping your elbows tucked is a good way to defend against armbars (either on top in someone's guard, or on bottom under someone's mount).

Folks don't keep their arms hidden indefinitely. But they do keep them hidden until they're ready to establish their grips or shoot their shot.

Similar to how a boxer will keep his guard up so it's harder to punch him. Is it boring if both boxers use the strategy of guard? No, because eventually they're going to strike.

 

[skribs136 156]

Sometimes there is a block with the hand in a fist, but in application the fist opens into a grab which may not be shown in the form. Add in the step/pivot and additional arm motion (which may look like a double punch or block) and an effective throw/takedown results. Such things can be found in our Kusanku, seisan and naihanci/(tekki/cheolgi) forms.

I'm with @philwhite on this one. If you have to add in context, add in extra steps and moves, perform a variation of the move, and add in extra details not included in the form...then the form isn't really teaching the move.

It's like when fans have to create a whole fanfiction to explain a plot hole.

 

[MadMartigan127 43]

I'm with @philwhite on this one. If you have to add in context, add in extra steps and moves, perform a variation of the move, and add in extra details not included in the form...then the form isn't really teaching the move.

It's like when fans have to create a whole fanfiction to explain a plot hole.

I grudgingly agree. While I don't subscribe to the 'Bunkai is Karate fan fiction'... (as fun as that comes across) it does seem that most Bunkai videos that I run across show the move in the pattern, then say "This is what you're actually doing", then proceed to demonstrate something on their partner that looks absolutely nothing like the form they just did.

I do believe that there are multiple movements that a Bunkai explanation helps show greater depth... but there are certainly some that are just looking for complexity when there maybe isn't.

 

[Earl Weiss133 33]

The question then must be asked: what is actually lost by removing the pre-arranged patterns?

I cannot speak for other systems. Only for Tk-D. I think by and large you might be able to substitute other stuff to replace them - but once you start stringing stuff together you have forms. In Chang Hon System forms do a few things. . It provides a way to practice techniques on a regular basis that are illegal in competition. In general they are designed (more or less) to practice right and left sides equally. Each has a certain history tied to culture and or philosophy. The technical specifications provide a metric to achieve and for the observer / instructor to determine if the performer knows the metric and has achieved that metric. Another benefit is that unlike regular 1 on 1 sparring eat teaches you how to adjust to any number of possible attackers coming from any direction. It provides a convenient metric from which a technique can be morphed (Had an article published on this.) Think of the specified technical metric as the center of a sphere. That metric can be morphed 360 degrees out ward from the center as needed limited only by practical considerations as might be needed more easily than if you learned a technique that might be on the edge of the sphere and needed to morph it to the opposite edge (I hope that I communicated that concept adequately) They also provide an Aesthetic component.

 

[Earl Weiss133 33]

I personally don't see any useful application of forms on fighting. Making a kick look pretty is far different than making a kick efffective.

If all you want to do is "Fight" ( Self defense, Competition , Combat, Personnel protection, - However you define "fight" ) most any traditional Martial Art System would be a huge wasteof time and energy.

 

[skribs136 156]

It provides a way to practice techniques on a regular basis that are illegal in competition.

This is the best explanation I've seen for the big disconnect between forms and sparring.

Another benefit is that unlike regular 1 on 1 sparring eat teaches you how to adjust to any number of possible attackers coming from any direction.

That's why you don't limit your sparring to 1-on-1.

---

As I've said, this isn't the only path I'm looking at taking. Just the path that makes the most sense if I open a hybrid TKD/BJJ gym.

 

[isshinryuronin26 26]

If you have to add in context, add in extra steps and moves, perform a variation of the move, and add in extra details not included in the form

As mentioned, the closer you get to the traditional Okinawan version of the form, the less it's a problem.

Over time these other subtle moves' original purpose is forgotten or have disappeared leaving only what seems like a punch or other basic move, or something that has no practical purpose

then the form isn't really teaching the move.

Teaching the move is not the purpose of the traditional form - it is the teacher's job to teach this to his student. The form was just a reminder and reference.

that most Bunkai videos that I run across show the move in the pattern, then say "This is what you're actually doing", then proceed to demonstrate something on their partner that looks absolutely nothing like the form they just did.

Agreed! It's one of my pet peeves in many bunkai videos. While there are possible variants to many form techniques, they should all follow the template IMO. Too many use the form as a platform to demonstrate their own favorite stuff which is not the form's purpose. Slight deviations and extensions to the form are fine as long as it's understood one should always return to the template. Otherwise, it destroys the form's integrity and usefulness.

 

[Kung Fu Wang137 167]

The form was just a reminder and reference.

If a form contains "This is a book". The student should also train:

- This is a pen.
- This is not a pen.
- That is a book.
- This is not a book.
- ...

Many people have spent all their life repeating "This is a book" 1,000,000 time. Some may never try "This is a pen" even once in their life time. What have prevented those people from training their form differently? They may have so much faith in TMA that TMA form should not be changed. If you form contains "jab, jab, cross", what can prevent you from doing "jab, jab, hook", or "jab, jab, uppercut"?

Mencius (孟子) said, "尽信书，则不如无书 It is better to have no books at all than to blindly believe everything in them."

 

[Buka45 2]

Answer: Nothing. Exactly my point. Without forms you have some kicking / punching exercise. I do not consider "Tae Bo" T K D and heck that was one of the largest selling videos of all time -. With a "Link" to some Korean. (I would have to search Billy Blanks lineage. )

Billy is a 7th under Pak Jon-Soo. (Pardon the likely mis- spelling.)