Are forms necessary for TKD?

[Buka38 13]

Are there form competition at the Olympic TKD event ?

I’m not sure, but I don’t think so.

 

[skribs123 143]

Are there form competition at the Olympic TKD event ?

Not part of the Olympics.

They are a part of every TKD tournament I've attended. (I've not gone to the Olympics). However, you don't sign up for "TKD" and have to do both forms and sparring. You can sign up for forms and/or sparring. If I had a dedicated sparring class, my students could sign up for just sparring.

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

You tell me, I guess. Both are readily identifiable not only as taekwondo but as their individual strains of taekwondo. And as distinct from the round kick in shotokan, muay thai, savate, etc.

And if the patterns look substantially different between strains of taekwondo (as they were between what I learned in ITF and later saw in WTF), is that a particularly unifying identity for the art?

Above was in response to my post about what makes a "Roundhouse Kick" T K D as opposed to some form of kick boxing. I can't tell you. IMO that is what it is.

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

Watch an IBJJF gi match and an ADCC no-gi match and they'll look like completely different martial arts. Yet you can train for both at the same gym.

All analogies are imperfect and this certainly is. No argument you have a sparring rule set under different T K D Orgs. As you state in your post above , except for the Olympics forms are part of (most) every T K D Tournament. However sparring rule sets alone do not define T K D since most orgs that have sparring rule sets have other stuff as well -- like forms.

 

[ap Oweyn26 2]

Above was in response to my post about what makes a "Roundhouse Kick" T K D as opposed to some form of kick boxing. I can't tell you. IMO that is what it is.

I'm sorry. I don't quite understand the end of this post. But I've said what I came here to say. And I never had expectation of changing your mind or anyone else's. So I think I'll bow out here. Take care.

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

I'm sorry. I don't quite understand the end of this post. But I've said what I came here to say. And I never had expectation of changing your mind or anyone else's. So I think I'll bow out here. Take care.

An earlier post I stated " I would submit that various systems using a T K D Moniker have "Round House " Kicks that look very different from each other. Within each system it can look different for sparring, breaking, and patterns. What makes them all and uniquely T K D ?"

To which you replied "You tell me"

Then the above post . I can't tell you what makes it T K D it's just a kick.

So, the query remains and therein lies the issue with the OP - before we could address whether forms are necessary for something labelled "T K D" we would firts have to address what makes something "T K D" (Either with or without forms) (Same issue could be said of defining what is or is not a " Martial Art").

Is it any link to some Korean who was kicking and punching, or something more?

 

[ap Oweyn26 2]

Is it any link to some Korean who was kicking and punching, or something more?

Okay...

It's not "some Korean." It's someone who presented themselves to you as a TKD instructor. Someone to whom you dedicated some years of study. Someone whose technique you emulate. I mean, that's lineage isn't it?

(Note that I also didn't stipulate that you need to have learned from "some Korean" at all. Your phrasing. Not mine. I've had plenty of good TKD teachers who were not Korean.)

At that level, you're kind of getting into a "what makes anything anything?" discussion.

If you learned your kicking and punching from a teacher professing to teach TKD, and their technique looks consistent with other reputable TKD teachers, and the technique seems to "fit" with the other techniques you're presented with in TKD...

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

Okay...

It's not "some Korean." It's someone who presented themselves to you as a TKD instructor. Someone to whom you dedicated some years of study. Someone whose technique you emulate. I mean, that's lineage isn't it?

(Note that I also didn't stipulate that you need to have learned from "some Korean" at all. Your phrasing. Not mine. I've had plenty of good TKD teachers who were not Korean.)

At that level, you're kind of getting into a "what makes anything anything?" discussion.

If you learned your kicking and punching from a teacher professing to teach TKD, and their technique looks consistent with other reputable TKD teachers, and the technique seems to "fit" with the other techniques you're presented with in TKD...

First and foremost. I stated "any ****link*****to some Korean" which was not meant to and does not imply first hand experience but of course relates to lineage. I think your last paragraph sums up your thought nicely - Thank you.

 

[skribs123 143]

I mean, even within the same TKD class I think you can have at least 5 different ways of doing a kick:

• The form way
• The tricking way
• The sparring way
• The self-defense way
• The breaking way

If all of these are "right" (for that application) and all of these are "Taekwondo" (because they're applied in a Taekwondo class), what makes any of them more or less right, or more or less Taekwondo than the others?

 

[skribs123 143]

Another advantage of this is that sometimes being a little bit different can set you apart from the pack.

 

[ap Oweyn26 2]

First and foremost. I stated "any ****link*****to some Korean" which was not meant to and does not imply first hand experience but of course relates to lineage. I think your last paragraph sums up your thought nicely - Thank you.

I see. I stand corrected, Earl.

As you say, that's about as neatly as I can summarise my thoughts on the issue. So, again, I think that's it for me in this thread. Thanks everyone.

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

I mean, even within the same TKD class I think you can have at least 5 different ways of doing a kick:

• The form way
• The tricking way
• The sparring way
• The self-defense way
• The breaking way

If all of these are "right" (for that application) and all of these are "Taekwondo" (because they're applied in a Taekwondo class), what makes any of them more or less right, or more or less Taekwondo than the others?

Answer: Nothing. Exactly my point. Without forms you have some kicking / punching exercise. I do not consider "Tae Bo" T K D and heck that was one of the largest selling videos of all time -. With a "Link" to some Korean. (I would have to search Billy Blanks lineage. )

 

[skribs123 143]

Answer: Nothing. Exactly my point. Without forms you have some kicking / punching exercise. I do not consider "Tae Bo" T K D and heck that was one of the largest selling videos of all time -. With a "Link" to some Korean. (I would have to search Billy Blanks lineage. )

I still don't know if your point is that it is TKD or isn't TKD.

 

[philwhite49 4]

Answer: Nothing. Exactly my point. Without forms you have some kicking / punching exercise. I do not consider "Tae Bo" T K D and heck that was one of the largest selling videos of all time -. With a "Link" to some Korean. (I would have to search Billy Blanks lineage. )

I'd rather take classes from Billy Blanks than any strip mall TKD school. He was a pretty legit competitor back in the day.

Call it what you want. As long as you aren't claiming ITF, WT, etc., I don't think your wrong here. If anyone asks, the obvious liniage you present is TKD.

 

[skribs123 143]

I have a light forms curriculum compared to most. I think its important to know but I focus more on the combat and self defense side. I have students that want to compete in form so I make sure they are prepared the best I can.

I think most tmas just use forms for belt tests. It’s an easy marker. Its harder to judge sparring performance.

As for various interpretations of what form moves really mean I’m not so sure I buy into that. In tkd I see them as more of a performance art. I don’t think this is a bad thing either. Sometimes certain moves look better together.

This is pretty much where I'm coming from.

I definitely see value in forms training. The question is what is the major theme of the class. The term I've been using when I think about this is that Taekwondo is an example of "broad spectrum martial arts". There's a little bit of this, a little bit of that, a little bit of some other thing. You dabble in a lot of topics, and develop yourself in a lot of ways. But what glues it all together?

As mentioned in another reply, I feel there's a bit of TKD built around:

• Precision and personal growth (primarily based on the forms, breaking, and testing)
• Sport and competition (primarily based on the sparring)
• Practicality (technical and conceptual self-defense)
• Entertainment (flashy kicks, choreographed self-defense, breaking, stylized forms)

I feel like you can isolate any one of these to focus on. What I've latched onto is sport and competition (especially if the other arts at the gym are sport/competition focused). And then, because the sport and competition focuses primarily on kicks, also include the flashy kicks and breaking from entertainment. But not self-defense or forms, because those are now multiple steps removed from the sport/competition side of things.

I do realize there are forms competitions, but those are more subjective. I almost consider it the difference between PvE races and PvP combat in video games. (The difference between speed-running single-player or coop content vs. trying to beat another player or team in direct battle).

And I definitely agree with you on implementation and practicality of forms. I'm personally skeptical of the concept of bunkai. I feel it's more pattern recognition and justification than actual merit gained from the forms (but that's having not trained at a Karate school). I feel the TKD forms were more created for political reasons (ITF forms to be "not Japanese" and KKW forms to be "not General Choi's") and lost the meaning of the katas they were taken from.

Of course, I can't be too critical of the Korean masters who created the ITF patterns and KKW poomsae, because I've basically gone through the same process in creating my forms. A defining feature of them is they are "not KKW's", so that people won't come to my school and expect a KKW certification.

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

I still don't know if your point is that it is TKD or isn't TKD.

My point is kicking and punching alone in whatever form is not "more or less T K D" . You can dump some ingredients for a cake into a pan. Unless you have all the ingredients , mix them properly and bake them properly you don't end up with a cake. Those ingredients are not "More or less" a cake. Billy Blanks took elements of T K D and created Tae Bo. I do not consider that T K D. Hwang Kee rejected the T K D moniker yet certain MDK people seem to have adopted the name which I think is disrespectful to their founder. But that is for them to explain. Some think Anthony Pettis (Has a T K D background) created the "Showtime kick" yet it appears in General Choi's text as "Reflex Kick" Does that make it a T K D Kick?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1599841271912378

 

[skribs123 143]

My point is kicking and punching alone in whatever form is not "more or less T K D" . You can dump some ingredients for a cake into a pan. Unless you have all the ingredients , mix them properly and bake them properly you don't end up with a cake.

So then what is TKD? What are those ingredients? Who decides what those are for the art as a whole, and not just for the organization of ITF, KKW, ATA, MDK, etc.?

I've heard some people say that weapons are TKD, and if your school doesn't include weapons you're missing out. I've heard other people say that weapons are not TKD, and if your school includes weapons they're a fraud. I've heard everything in between.

Minimum testing requirements for KKW (to my knowledge) are forms, sparring, and breaking. But most schools (in my experience) don't do much breaking outside of testing day. These requirements also exclude self-defense and/or grappling skills, which many say are definitely included in TKD.

If I were instead to say that I want to run a KKW school without poomsae, or an ITF school without patterns, then it would be very clear that I'm not meeting the curriculum requirements to be called TKD. But if I'm going to run an unaffiliated school with a more focused curriculum from what I learned in TKD, why is that not TKD?

Some think Anthony Pettis (Has a T K D background) created the "Showtime kick" yet it appears in General Choi's text as "Reflex Kick" Does that make it a T K D Kick?

By this logic every martial art with forms should be called Kung Fu.

 

[skribs123 143]

Billy Blanks took elements of T K D and created Tae Bo.

But even then, the name Tae Bo comes from Tae Kwon Do and Boxing. So he's essentially saying it's more than TKD, not less than TKD.

And, this was intended primarily for fitness. It's not built around sparring or self-defense. So if you are saying it's removed from TKD (which I disagree), then it's even further removed from TKD than what I am discussing in this thread.

 

[wab25]

There's a little bit of this, a little bit of that, a little bit of some other thing. You dabble in a lot of topics, and develop yourself in a lot of ways. But what glues it all together?

I am coming at this from a Danzan Ryu view point and a Kenkojuku Shotokan point of view.... Every art has bits from here and bits from there. There are many forms of Karate that study the Heian katas. They are the same katas, so why different arts? How can there be different arts that practice the same kata? They are using the same set of techniques, in the same order.

Its the glue. The glue between the different little bits, the glue that holds it together, connects those little bits together into a whole. It is the glue that defines the art. That is why one form of Shotokan Karate, that studies the Heian Katas is different from the another form of Shotokan Karate that also studies the Heian Katas. They found and made different connections between those same bits. When one school does a part of the kata in front stance where there other does it in back stance or when one chambers like this for the next move and the other chambers like that.... its not a memorization thing. Its a connection thing.... they see the connections differently, which means they use the pattern a little differently, hance the small nuanced changes.

In Danzan Ryu, we have standing wrist locks, arm locks and escapes. We have throws. We have pins and submissions. We have punches and kicks. But those things are not Danzan Ryu. Danzan Ryu is the bit that connects the standing arm lock escape, to the throw, to the pin and to the wrist lock. In fact, making your wrist lock better, makes your throws better, makes your pins better, makes you punches better, makes your kicks better.... makes everything better.... and vice versa (all the vice versas in there)

I have seen the same idea, its the glue, in Aikido, Daito Ryu, and Judo. The guy that taught me that the art is the connection between the various different things the art studies... is a 6th black belt in TKD and a five-time U.S. National Gold Medalist and a two-time World Self-Defense Champion (2019, 2021). I was asking him why they do breaking.... is it just for show or entertainment.... His explanation was that Jidokwon TKD connected forms to breaking to competition to self defense in a way unique to Jidokwon TKD. The other types of TKD, were making different connections, thus were different styles of TKD, even though many study the same forms. He explained that each piece pulled you a different direction. The tension between the different pieces puts the student in the right space. Remove a piece and the student will no longer be put in the same place.

 

[skribs123 143]

I am coming at this from a Danzan Ryu view point and a Kenkojuku Shotokan point of view.... Every art has bits from here and bits from there. There are many forms of Karate that study the Heian katas. They are the same katas, so why different arts? How can there be different arts that practice the same kata? They are using the same set of techniques, in the same order.

Its the glue. The glue between the different little bits, the glue that holds it together, connects those little bits together into a whole. It is the glue that defines the art. That is why one form of Shotokan Karate, that studies the Heian Katas is different from the another form of Shotokan Karate that also studies the Heian Katas. They found and made different connections between those same bits. When one school does a part of the kata in front stance where there other does it in back stance or when one chambers like this for the next move and the other chambers like that.... its not a memorization thing. Its a connection thing.... they see the connections differently, which means they use the pattern a little differently, hance the small nuanced changes.

In Danzan Ryu, we have standing wrist locks, arm locks and escapes. We have throws. We have pins and submissions. We have punches and kicks. But those things are not Danzan Ryu. Danzan Ryu is the bit that connects the standing arm lock escape, to the throw, to the pin and to the wrist lock. In fact, making your wrist lock better, makes your throws better, makes your pins better, makes you punches better, makes your kicks better.... makes everything better.... and vice versa (all the vice versas in there)

I have seen the same idea, its the glue, in Aikido, Daito Ryu, and Judo. The guy that taught me that the art is the connection between the various different things the art studies... is a 6th black belt in TKD and a five-time U.S. National Gold Medalist and a two-time World Self-Defense Champion (2019, 2021). I was asking him why they do breaking.... is it just for show or entertainment.... His explanation was that Jidokwon TKD connected forms to breaking to competition to self defense in a way unique to Jidokwon TKD. The other types of TKD, were making different connections, thus were different styles of TKD, even though many study the same forms. He explained that each piece pulled you a different direction. The tension between the different pieces puts the student in the right space. Remove a piece and the student will no longer be put in the same place.

The problem I have with this analogy, as it relates specifically to my experience of TKD, is that there was no real glue holding them together, except that all of those things are done on the same belt test.

The forms focus on hand techniques that aren't allowed in sparring. The sparring almost exclusively focuses on kicks, which are done differently than in the forms. The self-defense curriculum largely focuses on stand-up grappling (in the form of arm locks and throws), which don't connect to either the forms or the sparring.

It's less like a cohesive dish and more like a 3-course meal. And each course is made by a different chef.

Where do I see that glue? The style of kicking that glues TKD sparring, acrobatic kicking, and board breaking together. That's where I see the glue. It's the style of kicking.