Kenpo and Hapkido

[Hannya]

From the desciption of the styles I'm wondering how different the two styles are.

"Hapkido combines joint locks,pressure points, throws, kicks, and strikes practical to self defence...Emphasizes circular motion, non resistive movements, and control of opponent"

Sounds like the two are exactly the same except for kenpo you take out the pressure points and throw in eye/groin attacks. I'm still shopping around for a style and had decided on Kenpo because it was practical for self defense, I'm not really looking for a sport MA; but might have to check out some Hapkido now. Has anyone tried out both styles? What were the main differences between the two? Which is more geared toward "street fighting"?

I'm kinda leaning toward Hapkido because pressure points seem more practical, least damaging way to put a person down. Eye/groin attacks seem a bit excessive to me. I guess when I think of self defense, I dont imagine life/death situations but instead just protecting yourself from harm. Appreciate any responses.

 

[Zoran]

Not even close. I studied a form of Hapkido for a short time. The two don't even compare. Hapkido is much closer to traditional Jujitsu than anything else.

I'm kinda leaning toward Hapkido because pressure points seem more practical, least damaging way to put a person down. Eye/groin attacks seem a bit excessive to me. I guess when I think of self defense, I dont imagine life/death situations but instead just protecting yourself from harm. Appreciate any responses.

Really up to you. Joint locks and pressure points take a very very long time to perfect. Applying one to someone who doesn't want it is completely different than just working it in class.

 

[Hollywood1340]

Closer then one might think. Depends on your instructor on both sides of the aisle. Something along the lines of "You're either an inch on the building or an inch off"

 

[shesulsa]

Pressure points don't always work on everybody, either. And you have to remember that each build is different, so they're not always in the same spot. People with more body fat / mass will not feel them as much and vital (soft spot) striking becomes important.

 

[Zoran]

Closer then one might think. Depends on your instructor on both sides of the aisle. Something along the lines of "You're either an inch on the building or an inch off"

Sorry Hollywood, I don't buy that. If someone had changed Hapkido to the point that it is closer to Kenpo, well then it really isn't hapkido anymore. Maybe should call it HapKenpo (wish I didn't post that, I'm sure some will now).

Here is the diference as far as my experience in Hapkido took me:

In my 6 months experience in Hapkido, they taught me techniques and how to make them work for a given situation.

In my first 6 months of Kenpo, they taught me techniques and how to change it, if the situation changed.

 

[MJS]

From the desciption of the styles I'm wondering how different the two styles are.

"Hapkido combines joint locks,pressure points, throws, kicks, and strikes practical to self defence...Emphasizes circular motion, non resistive movements, and control of opponent"

Sounds like the two are exactly the same except for kenpo you take out the pressure points and throw in eye/groin attacks. I'm still shopping around for a style and had decided on Kenpo because it was practical for self defense, I'm not really looking for a sport MA; but might have to check out some Hapkido now. Has anyone tried out both styles? What were the main differences between the two? Which is more geared toward "street fighting"?

I'm kinda leaning toward Hapkido because pressure points seem more practical, least damaging way to put a person down. Eye/groin attacks seem a bit excessive to me. I guess when I think of self defense, I dont imagine life/death situations but instead just protecting yourself from harm. Appreciate any responses.

There will be certian aspects of locking/controlling/pressure points in Kenpo, but obviuosly there are arts out there that address certain things on another level. Doc would be able to give you a much more in depth explaination of this as much of it is contained in his SL4 that he teaches.

As I say to everyone that is researching arts....make sure that you check out both arts. Watch classes or take a trial class, and see what appeals to your needs the best.

Good luck on your search.

Mike

 

[Hollywood1340]

Then it would appear your HKD is not mine. The ability to flow with situation makes the art as powerful as it is.

 

[Paul B]

I was training in Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo before I started Hapkido. What drew me more to Hapkido is the immediate attention to principle driven technique.

In Kosho,I'd spend a lot of time doing forms,then doing escaping drills,then doing escaping drills w/strikes,etc...

In Hapkido,technique was practiced from day one which contained all these things along with throws and locks to conclude. I practiced more "theory" in one Hapkido technique then I would in a whole Kempo class.

Everything is relative in the MA...different approaches,same end result. There are many different ways to train,and reasons for them. Like MJS wrote,go see which Art you like better for your reasons and start training.

Also I just wanted to add that if you learned how to make Hapkido work,you didn't learn Hapkido. That would go against the principles of the Art. We train for nothing,if not adaptability. I will say that being "fluid" in anything after 6 months would be an outstanding result,though.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

The two styles are totally different. I think the two would compliment each other nicely, however. And no, I'm not advocating Hapkenpo.


Regards,


Steve

 

[arnisador]

In my experience the two are pretty different.

Hapkido often has a nice blend of techniques--joint locks, throws, kicking, striking, pressure point work--but sometimes you find someone who teaches it mostly like aikijutsu, or mostly emphasizing the kicks, etc.

As an aside, I'm apparently one of those people on whom pressure point techniques mostly don't work. Or, so I've been told.

 

[Brother John]

Hapkenpo...
I like that.

Kenpo and Hapkido are both great martial arts. I've had friends that studied Hapkido and shared bits with me. I have an appreciation for it, that's for sure.

There are different flavors of each!! As I understand it there was one Large schism w/in Hapkido a while back... pretty much making two main branches. ((I could have this wrong, probably do... any input Steve??)) From what I understand the larger, more common branch emphasizes jujutsu type self defense sequences with a healthy dose of Tang Soo Do type striking/kicking in with it.

Kenpo? Where do I begin? Schism? Which one? You are pretty safe in looking into Most schools that say they teach "American Kenpo".
Eye gouging. Wow...why are we SO known for that?? I dunno. Really Kenpo has a broad scope of action applied w/in it's self defense techs!!! Stand up grappling, kicks, punches, other hand strikes, elbows, knees, buckles, chokes and yes....the occasional eye attack....etc. etc. Kenpo certainly does apply nerve strikes!!! It doesn't skip'm.
BEST BET????
Go to each school, investigate heavily. Watch the advanced students... do they move and behave like you'd like to?? Question the instructors...A LOT. If they are like most martial arts instructors they LOVE answering questions about their art, their teachers, their thoughts/beliefs in regards to their arts...etc.
THEN decide.

BUT: Once you are in DROP SWEAT DAILY!!!
and enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your Brother
John

 

[KenpoDave]

Sounds like the two are exactly the same except for kenpo you take out the pressure points and throw in eye/groin attacks.

If you take out the pressure points, you're not doing kenpo.

 

[Ronin Moose]

I'm kinda leaning toward Hapkido because pressure points seem more practical, least damaging way to put a person down. Eye/groin attacks seem a bit excessive to me. I guess when I think of self defense, I dont imagine life/death situations but instead just protecting yourself from harm.

I like what I've seen in Hapkido, although I practice American Kenpo. I think I'd do Hapkido as an alternative choice. Either way, in regard to your last sentence - start imagining those life & death situations, while hoping that they don't appear on your doorstep. Better to practice and be prepared for the worst, then have the skill to adjust your reaction to the present threat. Or just never leave the gym and keep hoping that all the bad guys will play by the rules.

Good luck with your search. These folks on Martial Talk are very encouraging and helpful, and are usually a great source for feedback.

-Garry

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

Not even close. I studied a form of Hapkido for a short time. The two don't even compare. Hapkido is much closer to traditional Jujitsu than anything else.

The last two Hapkido schools I trained briefly at were nothing like "traditional Jujutsu" It fell in line more with Aikijujutsu.

 

[Zoran]

From what I understand the larger, more common branch emphasizes jujutsu type self defense sequences with a healthy dose of Tang Soo Do type striking/kicking in with it.

Yep, that's the one I had experience in.

Just a note, my experience in the system is limited to the one instructor and one system of Hapkido. From what I've seen of their higher ranking students, they also included some Judo training.

The best advise is:
Go to each school, investigate heavily. Watch the advanced students... do they move and behave like you'd like to?? Question the instructors...A LOT. If they are like most martial arts instructors they LOVE answering questions about their art, their teachers, their thoughts/beliefs in regards to their arts...etc.
THEN decide.
-- Brother John

 

[bdparsons]

Having had a good deal of exposure to different methods of both Kenpo and Hapkido, I can tell you both are strong arts and with a good instructor and a proper attitude you won't go wrong no matter which you choose.

Hapkido--As mentioned by arnisador you will find a wide disparity in how Hapkido is taught. Some schools teach a curriculum that resembles aikido with a few kicks thrown in; others teach something that resembles Tae Kwon Do with a few joint locks thrown in (though these are opposite ends of the spectrum, they are not exaggerations). In the mid-late 90s the Hapkido craze gave birth to a plethora of "Hapkido" masters that wouldn't recognize good Hapkido if it bit them in the seat of their pants, but it certainly allowed them to offer "something else" to supplement their income. Closely examine any Hapkido school for a balance of the different facets of the art. These include, not in any particular order, falling (learning to fall will make your throws stronger), joint manipulations & pressure points (they are different), striking with the hands and feet, stances and manuevering, self defense techniques, etc. Too much emphasis on any one or two areas will by default result in a deficiency in the others. Talk to the prospective instructor about how the curriculum they teach addresses each of these issues.

Kenpo--As with Hapkido you will find a great deal of material being taught as Kenpo. Some folks will group any curriculum that employs rapid-fire striking and relys primarily on self-defense techniques and call it Kenpo. This is a superficial understanding of what Kenpo is. Any martial art that proposes to teach effective has to do with structuring a defense in a fight while deconstructing the attackers offense. Kenpo does this through controlling an assailant's dimensional zones primarily through blocking, striking, lower level leg work, grabbing and (if taught properly) joint manipulations.

Both Hapkido and Kenpo have one basic element in common: When applied properly you are on the opponent like glue. You decide when the encounter is finished and how much force you will choose to use.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Bode]

First, the best advice has already been given:

Go to each school, investigate heavily. Watch the advanced students... do they move and behave like you'd like to?? Question the instructors...A LOT. If they are like most martial arts instructors they LOVE answering questions about their art, their teachers, their thoughts/beliefs in regards to their arts...etc.-- Brother John

I have no agenda and can only speak about the art (Science) I practice and that is SL4. So for what it's worth, here is what I have to say:

When discussing any Martial Art it is difficult to distill them into such a simple description. In a very general sense as you described, Kenpo and Hapkido sound the same. (You used one sentence to describe them). This does not do EITHER system justice.

Sounds like the two are exactly the same except for kenpo you take out the pressure points and throw in eye/groin attacks.

This is not true. Every teacher has their way of teaching. Whether it be Kenpo or Hapkido. One school will be better than the other possibly. One may have taken out the eye gouges and added pressure point strikes (nerve strikes). You may find a great Hapkido instructor who you would learn more from than the bad Kenpo instructor down the street.
In SL4 there are hardly any eye gouges for the simple fact that lawsuites are common. Someone grabs you... you poke his eye out.... you go to jail.

I'm kinda leaning toward Hapkido because pressure points seem more practical, least damaging way to put a person down.

The amount of damage is not inherent to either system. SL4 has nerve strikes (pressure points) which are used to create an overwhelming nervous response and end the confrontation. Hopefully we have caused little damage. However, keep in mind that Hapkido can be very damaging to the attackers joints. Ligaments and muscle can easily be torn. In the end it's up to the Martial Artist to modulate the level of his response to the attacker. Ask a good Hapkido practitioiner to give you a demonstration of how deadly on the joints Hapkido can be. You'll find that your above statement will be modified.

A quote from Doc's writings:

This "advanced level" of His American Kenpo as I understand it, shortened sometimes to SL-4? tends to be misunderstood because it covers multiple areas of evolution and applications. When SubLevel Four is used to strike, nerves are activated through basic Destructive Sequencing utilizing Chinese Acupuncture Meridians, pressure points, and nerves embedded in cavities of the human body. This causes the subject to involuntarily react in a predictable manner creating a Negative Body Posture. This places him at a significant anatomical disadvantage. In simple terms, nerve cavities are made accessible and body positioning is physically restricted and vulnerable, thus the term Negative Body Posture. This unique methodology effectively manipulates the body uniquely for each additional action, until it is essentially incapacitated by a bodily dysfunction called Physical/Mental Disassociation or physically incapacitation. At the very least, your attacker is severely momentarily physically restricted.

Body Mass and Pressure Points

Pressure points don't always work on everybody, either. And you have to remember that each build is different, so they're not always in the same spot. People with more body fat / mass will not feel them as much and vital (soft spot) striking becomes important.

VERY, VERY important statement. Very true. Everyone is built differently. The nerver points will be in the same AREA, but it takes years to be able to see exactly where they are on anyone. In terms of body mass. I was recently demonstrating a nerver strike on a larger, rather obese person. It took me longer to find the spot and once I did, I had to hit harder.

Dr. Chapel was yelling at me one time. I was looking at the meridian (Pressure point, nerve center) charts. He said, "Don't look at those." Of course, I ask why. "Their wrong!"... ok this got me. The charts, which have been around for years and years were wrong. I had never heard anyone say this before, but Doc insisted. Well... six months later the Chinese health organization (dont know the name) announced that something like 76 of the 300 some odd nerve points were wrong. They were reprinting all charts and recommending people update. Heheheh... Doc looked at me and said, "I told you."

As an aside, I'm apparently one of those people on whom pressure point techniques mostly don't work. Or, so I've been told.-- arnisador

Apparently you haven't met Doc!

And finally I have to go off on Pain Compliance versus, I don't know what to call it, but here goes, Anatomical Compliance. Doc is in England and would expand further or yell at me.

Pain Compliance
Hapkido and most joint manipulation relies on pain compliance. You cause enough pain that someone will unwillingly comply. However, as someone stated in this thread, not everyone has the same pain threshold. As such, a technique may not work as well on a larger, more pain tolerant individual. Others may have supple joints or are double jointed, which might possibly add another level of difficulty to pain compliance.
So, pain alone cannot be used as a method of controlling an opponent. It is the basis for many arts and is valid, but should not be the only emphasis. In addition, you may end up physically maiming someone who will not comply. They just might force you to pop every ligament in their shoulder, in which case you might have a lawsuite.
What complements Pain Compliance?
Anatomical Compliance... (Not a Sl4 term, but used for reference. I am sure Doc has a word for it.)
Certain physical phenomenon are provable and quantifiable. They hold under strict scientific testing. Physics plays a major part. If I throw a ball into the air, I know it will come back down (assuming we are on earth). Gravity is a fact.
Consider the human anatomy. If someone bends at the waste and their head is below their waste, they cannot move their feet in any locomative fashion. Perhaps a slight stomp, but nothing substantial. They are stuck in place unless they roll to the ground. Try it.

How does the help Pain Compliance work? If you force a persons body into a Negative Body Posture, one in which the body is in a state where it cannot respond efficiently or effectively, you have greatly increased your ability to perform a technique or create compliance. As such, the level of pain compliance is lowered.
The person who will not obey with pain alone, is forced to obey, because as much as they might like to, they cannot deny physics.
Is it complicated? Yes. Even being able to see when a person is in a Negative Body Posture takes time and creating takes even more training. Creating it spontaneously (i.e. not in a training drill) will take more time still...
Learning Anatomical Compliance WITH Pain Compliance will help avoid situations where someone does not respond to pain and would otherwise force you to break their arm. In todays society we don't want this. Certainly Police would be better off since their current systems work on Pain compliance as the main control mechanism.

I must admit I do see Anatomical Compliance in other arts, but it is not codified or scientificall studied. It is a byproduct of the system. SL4 teaches it, not as a byproduct, but as a necessity. There are names for methods for creating Negative Body Postures and as such, it becomes true knowledge.
A simple example is when a cop has a person put their hands on the hood of the car, legs spread wide. This is a difficult position to move quickly from, because it puts the suspect in an anatomically deficient position (negative body posture).
Wow... ok, I didn't expect to write that much. Hope it helps.

 

[Kenpoist]

Sounds like BD has the best perspective , having experience in both. Ultimatley, find a good instructor who will teach you practical, street effective martial arts. For me, American Kenpo offers the best choice in personal protection.

Hapkido would probably offer a good alternative, but keep in mind as mentioned previously, many joint lock techniques are not as effective as you might hope when being applied to a non-compliant assailant/attacker. I was taught many a technique in my police officer days to subdue a criminal and most of the joint locking techs went out the window when the fight was on - but the kenpo "kicked" in nicely .

My current instructor teaches Kuk Sool Won joint locking as a supplement to my kenpo training, but it is most effective as "closing technique". That is - after you have softened your attacker up a little with strikes, kicks, (eye gouges) etc.., you have placed them in a weakened state at which point you apply your joint locking principles to place the attacker into submission/pain compliance.

-Good Luck!

 

[Bode]

you have placed them in a weakened state at which point you apply your joint locking principles to place the attacker into submission/pain compliance.

Wouldn't you agree that you apply pain compliance as well as a form of Anatomical Compliance. Meaning, as a police officer, you probably apply pain compliance in addition to forcing them to the ground, up against a car, etc... in a position where they have a difficult time moving/reacting. Codifying and pointing out the anatomical state seems to help people create that state in their attacker.
I always appreciate the police perspective.

 

[Kenpoist]

Yes, anatomical complaince goes hand in hand wiith pain complaince on the beat. It places the non-compliant resister at a point of disadvantage. Good for locking them up.Off the beat - Kenpo would be my first choice for survival because I don't have to go to control tactics to place the cuffs on an individual - I am simply trying to eliminate the threat that is being posed to me or my family at the time - I am not going to dance around with trying to subdue the attacker into compliance.