Britian: Firearms cheap, easy to get and on a street near you

[Deaf Smith]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/30/ukcrime1

"The variety of weapons on offer in Britain is extensive and includes machine guns and shotguns, as well as pistols and converted replicas. A source close to the trade in illegal weapons contacted by the Guardian listed a menu of firearms that are available on the streets of the capital.

"You can get a clean [unused] 9mm automatic for £1,500, a Glock for a couple of grand and you can even make an order for a couple of MAC-10s," he said. "Or you can get a little sawn-off for £150. They're easy enough to get hold of. You'll find one in any poverty area, every estate in London, and it's even easier in Manchester, where there are areas where the police don't go.

"People who use shotguns tend to be lower down the pecking order. There is less use of sawn-off or full length shotguns, and if a criminal wants street cred, he wants a self-loading pistol, a MAC-10 or an Uzi submachine gun."

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According to David Dyson, a leading firearms consultant, it is possible to learn through the internet how to make a firearm, given a degree of skill, and converted deactivated weapons also feature in shootings.

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Home Office data shows that gun crime is up since last year, despite the recent doubling of sentences for possessing or supplying firearms. There were 9,803 firearms offences in England and Wales in the year to March 2008 with most in London, Manchester and the West Midlands.

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"Everyone wants to be a gangster now, mainly the kids. You have five or six in a little crew and one of them will be carrying. They want handguns - shotguns are too big and bulky. The sawn-off doesn't look so good but use a machine gun and you get known as a heavy guy. They have them just to be a chap on the street, to pose. Some of them walk around all day with a .38. It's 16-year-olds at it and it's getting like America, silly as it sounds."

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Few professional criminals would keep guns on their premises. "Only silly people keep it in their homes. Normally, you have a 'keeper' a couple of miles away and some of them have been at it for 20 years. It's best to have an old fellow with no previous or a woman. You keep the ammunition separate because you'll get a much heavier sentence if you have them together."

So the honest people have no weapons to defend themselves, but gangs have them a'plenty in England. This is the result of gun control. It will only get worse over there.

Deaf

 

[Tez3]

Oh dear, oh dear oh dear.
More advice from the world's police.
No, guns aren't that easy to get hold of but there's been gangs with guns dating backing to when guns were first invented, arming the populace would solve nothing as they don't want to be armed. Rightly or wrongly they don't want their police armed either, my force is the only one routinely armed as we aren't Home Office police and the nature of the job is different.
Nine and a half thousand guns crimes in two countries with a combined population of 63,756,938 isn't bad is it? Oh and btw some of that gun crime is terrorist related as in the Provos and the Loyalists are still at it. Oh and gun crime over here isn't actually using them it's also possession and gun trafficking. the majority of gun crimes involving shootings are drug gang related where they shoot each other, there has been a few high profile cases where kids have been killed in shootings but arming people would not have stopped them, again though they are gang related.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.

America seems to have a much higher rate of crime in just one of it's cities than all three of our countries, The Channel Islands and The Isle of Man put together. In fact it seems to have more crime than the European Community and that's well over 20 countries.

 

[Tez3]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6960431.stm

I guess we're doing something right.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/gun-crime/

Less than 0.5% of all crime in the UK is gun related.

 

[Ahriman]

To be a bit sarcastic: no wonder gun crimes are at such a low percentage - with these prices who would ever buy any? Hey, they ask more for a sawn-off shotgun than their Hungarian colleagues ask for an AK47...
...
Bottom line is, if you want guns, you can get them - anywhere, anytime, only the time and money needed to be invested into obtaining them changes and in some countries one would need to invest too much of either or both to worth it. It seems the UK is one of those countries - I doubt you could get hand grenades at circa $3 each there in a week, which is good.

 

[Deaf Smith]

The catch is this Tez3,

England is a island. If ever one thought gun prohibition would stop guns from being brought in, or produced localy, and 'gun crime' would cease, one would think it would work in England. Well we see it isn't the case.

Do you remember that back in the 1920s and 30s there was very very little crime in England yet guns were easy to get legaly? Funny how the more guns were restricted the more crime went up.

And from what I hear of the British police, they are very very weak in gun handling skills and have many accidental discharges. All because they never learned how to use them before entering service.

Deaf

 

[Sukerkin]

A small elaboration, Mr. Smith. Geologically, Britain is an island it is true. Sadly we did a technologically great but fundamentally stupid thing by linking ourselves to mainland Europe with a tunnel.

All sorts of things are coming through there, ranging from deadly spiders to rabies to illegal immigrants to guns.

Also, even if the tunnel did not exist, smuggling has been a fact for as long as there has been restrictions on imports. Passing a law to prohibit the importation of something just means it doesn't come through one of the regular ports - our coastline might not be as wiggly as Norways's nor as long an America's but there are plenty of places to pull up a dinghy running with no lights and off-loading a few boxes of something.

Apart from that, it is something to ponder the differences in crime rates between countries and why they exist. You would think that the proportion of people inclined to do bad things was a constant from place to place but it seems not.

I have a personal theory that is related to poverty, or at least exclusion from the means to garner sufficient funds to support yourself. I might shimph and winge (aka moan) about my tax rate but it's prescence to fund the SS does seem to work to turn our would-be criminal statistics into spongers instead. In the end I do think that is a better road, even tho' it might cost me more Pounds Sterling personally in the long run.

 

[jks9199]

And from what I hear of the British police, they are very very weak in gun handling skills and have many accidental discharges. All because they never learned how to use them before entering service.

Deaf

I've not heard anything negative about British police firearms skills, and I am acquainted with several British officers. But, even granting that your information on that issue is correct -- I disagree with the leap that accidental or unintentional discharges are linked to lack of training prior to entering police service. I don't have easy stats, but just thinking about the handful I know -- most had military experience prior to becoming law enforcement officers, thus did enter police service with firearms training.

In fact, based on that reasoning, you'd expect to see ever increasing firearms mistakes here in the US as more and more people who become police officers handle a gun for the first time in the academy. And we're not seeing that happen...

 

[jarrod]

Oh dear, oh dear oh dear.
More advice from the world's police.
No, guns aren't that easy to get hold of but there's been gangs with guns dating backing to when guns were first invented, arming the populace would solve nothing as they don't want to be armed. Rightly or wrongly they don't want their police armed either, my force is the only one routinely armed as we aren't Home Office police and the nature of the job is different.
Nine and a half thousand guns crimes in two countries with a combined population of 63,756,938 isn't bad is it? Oh and btw some of that gun crime is terrorist related as in the Provos and the Loyalists are still at it. Oh and gun crime over here isn't actually using them it's also possession and gun trafficking. the majority of gun crimes involving shootings are drug gang related where they shoot each other, there has been a few high profile cases where kids have been killed in shootings but arming people would not have stopped them, again though they are gang related.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.

America seems to have a much higher rate of crime in just one of it's cities than all three of our countries, The Channel Islands and The Isle of Man put together. In fact it seems to have more crime than the European Community and that's well over 20 countries.

admittedly, that is a pretty good percentage. however you could make the same arguement regarding U.S. gun crime being inter-gang related. unfortunately we happen to have a greater problem with poverty in the inner cities, which will always lead to increased crime. i think the solution for decreasing crime in the states will be to strengthen the middle class by increasing work & education opportunities for the poor.

i'm also not sure i agree with you about terrorist activity. trying to eject an occupying force from your country isn't exactly terrorism. of course this is a touchy subject for many, so maybe i should have let that one go.

in any case, i don't think that anyone is trying to forcibly arm the british people. if the british like strict weapons prohibitions, that is their business. i think people point out these articles because if firearm bans don't magically eradicate gun violence in the U.K. (let alone violence in general), it certainly won't do much here, where there are many more guns already in the borders, plenty of smuggling opportunities, & a general distrust of governmental restrictions. like i touched on before, our problems with violence have more to do with culture & economics.

jf

 

[Tez3]

The catch is this Tez3,

England is a island. If ever one thought gun prohibition would stop guns from being brought in, or produced localy, and 'gun crime' would cease, one would think it would work in England. Well we see it isn't the case.

Do you remember that back in the 1920s and 30s there was very very little crime in England yet guns were easy to get legaly? Funny how the more guns were restricted the more crime went up.

And from what I hear of the British police, they are very very weak in gun handling skills and have many accidental discharges. All because they never learned how to use them before entering service.

Deaf

Since when has England been an island?
Crime in the 30s and 40s in the Uk was rife, violence much more common than it is now, razor gangs were notorious, unemployment was high and many took to crime. Crime levels didn't fall until the 1950s when the standard of living went up. I think that proves Sukerkin's point about poverty and crime.Whoever thought England was a green and pleasant land in the 30's and 40's was wrong, it was a very miserable time in history ( which despite your post suggesting I do I don't remember personally lol!)
You seem to think gun control here is a modern thing, it's not. Gun licences were first made mandatory in 1870, then there was the Pistol Act in 1903. IN 1920 fearing weapons could be got hold of easily after the war there was the Firearms Act 1920 then fully automatic weapons were banned under another Firearms Act in 1937.
What you may hear about the police is hardly the truth, do you think then they are issued weapons without first being taught how to use them? Where would these NDs being taking place? Not in public that's for sure. The officers training police officers to use firearms are extremely competent, many are ex military, and know how to do their jobs as do the officers who are issued firearms.
As for the terrorist issue, Northern Ireland had very little to do with fighting for freedom and loads more to do with drugs and crime than people imagine. Co-operation between the two 'sides' when carving up terrority for their drug gangs was and is a common practice. I was also talking about what happened on mainland UK not the Province, I mentioned too that we have Loyalist 'terrorists' who can hardly be fighting for freedom.

 

[Tez3]

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb0207.pdf

Interesting reading.

 

[jarrod]

I was also talking about what happened on mainland UK not the Province, I mentioned too that we have Loyalist 'terrorists' who can hardly be fighting for freedom.

point taken.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Since gun crime has dropped in Britain do to the firearm laws has knife crime sky rocketed?

 

[Tez3]

Since gun crime has dropped in Britain do to the firearm laws has knife crime sky rocketed?

No it hasn't rocketed, it's actually dropping. However, the deaths of young people has grabbed the news headlines and it seems as if the problem while bad, is worse than it is.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/may/13/ukcrime.boris
For the media violent crime sells, it's sensationalist and will attract comments from all sides of the political spectrum, it's also an easy thing to appear to crack down on for governments. The figures however put a lie to this. Last year there were 1201 murders in the UK, 14 of these were firearms related.
http://www.nationmaster.com/red/country/uk-united-kingdom/cri-crime&b_cite=1&b_define=1&all=1

What should worry people in the UK is deaths in hospitals from the so called superbugs. These are preventable but are rising.
In 2007 there were 8324 deaths where the superbug C Dif are mentioned, in 2006 there were 6489, this is for one of the bugs only. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/aug/28/health.nhs.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It is just that all of my british friends report that knife crime has risen drastically and that they indeed are concerned because the young street punks have taken to it. :erg:

 

[Sukerkin]

Hi Brian.

It could well be that your British friends (hey! I thought I was your friend and I'm British ) believe in good faith that knife crime has escalated beyond all reason in recent times but it is not so.

As Irene was saying above, the media focus on the incidents that have happened this year in London has given the impression that every street has some young thug knifing another to death but the collected statistics tell a different story. I do admit that, despite my being aware of the media manipulation of perception, I too thought things were going from bad to worse. Then I saw the official reports.

As a reassurance that this not just another 'figures massage' to make the police look good, the data on deaths is very rigorous in it's collection and analysis - it's not like some crimes where a significant percentage goes unreported (common assault for example).

 

[theletch1]

As twisted as it may sound I'm glad to hear that the US isn't the only place in the world that the media distorts facts to sell ad space with the result being that people around the world get an off kilter view of the country from which they're reporting.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Sukerkin I have no doubt that in the UK your knife crime has increased but not to the proportions that the media or other people would like everyone to believe.

The media over here in the States blows things way out of proportion as well.

 

[Tez3]

It is just that all of my british friends report that knife crime has risen drastically and that they indeed are concerned because the young street punks have taken to it. :erg:

It's a strange situation we have here at the moment, knife crime appears to have risen but actually hasn't. what we've had is a lot of young people killed by other young people with knives, that of course has made big headlines and lots of hand wringing by the politicians. Lots of headlines in the papers with campaigns by them ( sells papers of course) for tougher laws for carrying weapons. Our laws are more than up to the jobs but people want something to be seen to be done which will magically make the problem disappear.

According to the British Crime Survey, knife-enabled crime (any crime involving a knife) over the past decade has remained stable at around 6-7% of all crime, comprising 30% of all homicides.
In fact, the most recent crime survey by the Metropolitan police showed that knife crime has actually dropped by 15.7% over the past two years, from 12,122 to 10,220 incidents

Knives have always been the weapon of choice here and many people have always carried them. In the 70's and 80s we had the football gangs carrying them before that the London gangs who always preferred bladed weapons (The Krays etc) Young people are being interviewed on tv news programmes telling how they carry them for protection. It's the perception that knife crime has gone up as well as gun crime that makes people especially people outside of the UK who glean what they know of our country from the media think this a far more of a problem than it is.
It is a problem, there's no doubt about it, gangs are more common than they used to be copying from America. Racism is coming into a lot with white gangs v Muslim ones, anti Muslim feelings run high in some cities and young Muslims feel they need to protect themselves as well aas the fact they are being pushed by cynical 'mullahs' who would like to see their youth fighting the British establishment.
In other places drugs play a large part and the rival drug gangs will fight it out. There's also a large amount of lads playing at being macho, emulating what they see in the media, the gangs you see in the American dramas.
Ther is little danger for the ordinary citizen in the UK, violent crime is still very rare but if you are young and personally this is what shocks and worries me you are far more likely to be the victim of crime usually committed by other youths.

 

[Tez3]

There was another thread on MT wasn't there about the perceptions people had drawn purely from the media. I think that was about the people in the southern states of American but I find it also true of what people think of the UK.
Contrary to popular belief and probably wishful thinking Britain has never been a sort of peaceful green and pleasant land. Crime may seem bad now but thats because we are living in these times and it affects us but the crime figures in this country are decreasing not increasing. This is partly because the UK was a very violent place to live until relatively recently!Probably right up until the 1950s. Even through the war it was unsafe to walk the streets of our capital and not because of Germans bombs. Without modern media though it never seemed that way.
None of this is new it's just perhaps more newsworthy now, I don't know. The first article shows that gangs in Manchester have been there for over 20 years. the second is a history of London gangs.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/233/233750_history_of_moss_sides_gun_gang_culture.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/mob_bosses/kray/away_4.html

 

[Deaf Smith]

Let's get some things strait about gun control and crime in England or any place else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate

This does not break down by weapon type. Notice Israel has a low murder rate but has lots and lots of guns (and lurking terrorist.) And Switzerland, were people are required to keep military rifles and ammo in their home, has one of the lowest. Yet Mexico, were gun control is very ridged (if a U.S. traverl has just ONE bullet, to jail they go) has a huge murder rate.

http://thegreenman.net.au/mt/archives/000055.html
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

I thought 'nationmaster' would be interesting cause of the comments on how many nations compile their stats (that is define murder or even record it.) Some of the ones commenting are officials. A very acid comment was over Middle Eastern countries and their view of murder .vs. 'honor killings' (in other words it ain't murder.)

Now this below has to do with crime rates in general.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-reported-crime-rates.html

Apparently Scotland is one of the top ten! U.S. is not on the list.

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html#guns

Show some very interesting stats on murder in countries with or without guns (yes 'gun violence declines, but it's mearly substitued with other means to commit murder.)

Oh, and about England being an island (or not.) Even with the tunnel it's still just as much an island as Tahiti (you can get there buy air or ship just can't drive.) The tunnel should be easy to control as it's one point of entry. Unfortunatly smugglers are always happy to find new methods.

One should notice smuggling of drugs has not be stopped in ANY country, so why would guns? And that is why, showing more and more guns are being introduced into Enland, it will only get worse.

The trouble with British laws is innocent people do not have the legal means to defend themselves. Criminals do not wait for the police to be around and know well how to evade camera detection (I hear there has been a MP request to ban the wearing of hats in public now and DNA test done on everybody.)

And about the English police and AD/NDs.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/...emselves+and+colleagues+by+mistake/article.do

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...ter-gun-mistakes-are-revealed-89520-20591754/

and read Christopher Heim on Unintentional Discharges of Firearms.

http://www.eptk2007.de/policetrainerconference/Bulletin 2007.html

Crime and violence is a product of culture, broken homes, and to an extent poverty. Culture that belives in here-and-now pleasure, broken homes were children are not taught right from wrong, and yes lack of abilthy to earn a living.

Guns? No, guns don't cause crime no more than matches cause arson.

Someone always has to pull the trigger.

Deaf