At what point in the confrontation does 'self defense' apply?

[Snowy]

Hi guys.

At what point in the confrontation does 'self defense' apply?
Would you defend yourself at the point of physical contact? If the other person has threatened to hurt you?
Or would you always try your best to avoid the situation and only act out once the assailant has thrown a strike?

This comes to mind after a WC classmate (roughly 6 months training) dropped a random street aggressor with 2 straight punches to the chest. The thug had grabbed him by the shoulder after acting all 'macho'.

I myself have been shoved, but obviously the wc stance absorbed it -and all I had to do was warn him not to come near me again.

When would you begin to defend yourself with your wing chun skills?

 

[Chris Parker]

Self defence begins with awareness, so as to avoid violence as a first line of defence. So, from before the situation arises. When should you start responding physically? When it's appropriate. When is that? Well, that's a question that can only be answered in terms of the context of the situation.

While this isn't a "Wing Chun" answer, it is a self defence one, so take it as it is there.

 

[seasoned]

Every situation is different. We need to consider each interaction on it's own merit. Walking around with a (hair trigger) so to speak can cause more harm then good.

 

[mook jong man]

Hi guys.

At what point in the confrontation does 'self defense' apply?
Would you defend yourself at the point of physical contact? If the other person has threatened to hurt you?
Or would you always try your best to avoid the situation and only act out once the assailant has thrown a strike?

This comes to mind after a WC classmate (roughly 6 months training) dropped a random street aggressor with 2 straight punches to the chest. The thug had grabbed him by the shoulder after acting all 'macho'.

I myself have been shoved, but obviously the wc stance absorbed it -and all I had to do was warn him not to come near me again.

When would you begin to defend yourself with your wing chun skills?

When they throw a strike at me.
Or when they start trying to rip my "Fence" down or get past it.

 

[K-man]

Hi guys.

At what point in the confrontation does 'self defense' apply?
Would you defend yourself at the point of physical contact? If the other person has threatened to hurt you?
Or would you always try your best to avoid the situation and only act out once the assailant has thrown a strike?

When would you begin to defend yourself with your wing chun skills?

Self defence begins the moment you step outside. You might call that basic awareness as Chris has already said. Once there is 'confrontation' there are rules that kick in. What form does the confrontation take? Are you being physically threatened or verbally abused? Do you have a way out, away from any danger? Are you alone? Is the aggressor alone? Are there witnesses?

So the rules are in some ways basic and in other ways complex. If you feel physically threatened, in most places, you can take reasonable measures to defend yourself. The downside ... if you do a good job of defending yourself and the aggressor is injured, you may find yourself explaining your actions in court. You may even be sued for damages. If you have witnesses that testify that you were threatened and did nothing more than stop the threat, then you should have nothing to fear legally.

Something to consider is this. Getting into a fight is rarely spontaneous. For someone to physically threaten you means that he has assessed the situation and concluded that he can beat you. No-one goes into a street fight thinking they will lose. So, if you could have escaped but chose instead to fight, you too must have come to the same conclusion. Now the question arises, which of you is right? If you have called badly you could end up in hospital or even the morgue. Is it worth the risk? That's your call, but choose carefully. Once a fight starts an enormous number of variables come into play.

As to using you WC skills. You can do that at any time, but, the best option, normally, is not to engage at all. :asian:

 

[jks9199]

Hi guys.

At what point in the confrontation does 'self defense' apply?
Would you defend yourself at the point of physical contact? If the other person has threatened to hurt you?
Or would you always try your best to avoid the situation and only act out once the assailant has thrown a strike?

This comes to mind after a WC classmate (roughly 6 months training) dropped a random street aggressor with 2 straight punches to the chest. The thug had grabbed him by the shoulder after acting all 'macho'.

I myself have been shoved, but obviously the wc stance absorbed it -and all I had to do was warn him not to come near me again.

When would you begin to defend yourself with your wing chun skills?

Self defense is a big issue. I have to start with a caveat -- I am not providing specific legal advice.

In general -- you are allowed to use the least force reasonably necessary to stop an attack and allow you to get away safely. This is a very loaded phrase; entire books have been written about it. Focusing only on your question -- when should your defense start -- you have to look at 4 key factors:

1. Intent: Is your assailant trying to hurt you? Do they want to do harm to you? You can't claim self defense for knocking out someone who innocently bumped into you on the street. Signs of intent include behaviors, like making fists, and words, like threats.
2. Means: Do they have the capability to carry out the threat? If someone threatens to nuke you, but they don't have a missile -- they lack the means. A 4 year old generally lacks the means to carry out a threat against an adult... Someone so drunk they can't stand up probably isn't really able to smash your skull in.
3. Opportunity: Are they in a position to carry out the threat? If I threaten to punch you in the face if you type another word -- can I really do that? I've given you evidence of Intent, I have fists and can throw a punch so I have the Means... but you're not sitting in front of me, and I don't even know where you live, so I don't have the Opportunity. Someone with a gun 30 feet away certainly has the ability to shoot you from there, but they can't punch you.
4. Preclusion: This one often gets overlooked. Generally, you have to be unable to avoid the use of force to protect yourself. That doesn't mean you have to run before you defend yourself -- but that you have to have lesser options be unavailable or impractical or unsafe. No time to run meets this requirement; so might having someone with you who would be unable to protect themselves if you left (kids, the elderly or infirm, for example). This also applies to the question of how much force you can use; you can't use lethal force unless lesser force is unlikely to succeed.

All of this presupposes that you were in the right, in the first place. You can't start a fight and then claim self defense.

There's not an exact calculus of what is a reasonable level of force and what is not. It's too variable based on too many factors. So, your stance and deflection and your buddy's punches both could be reasonable, even in the exact same circumstances. But neither of you would have probably been justified in hitting the guy with a baseball bat. Factors that influence the reasonableness include things like your physical condition and heath, your relative sizes, special skills and training (like martial arts or LE training), and there's more.

Confused yet? Kasey Keckeisen did a nice piece on it, by chance, yesterday.

I haven't even really addressed the idea that self defense is really an affirmative defense saying that you did something that should be illegal, but that you were justified in doing so...

And, of course, there are differences in different places and countries.

 

[Touch Of Death]

As a martial artist it is actually healthy to stop and say to your self, "What if things went down, right now? What is my plan?" If you do this enough you should make physical changes that give you an advantage, just in case. So, screw the Clark Kent stuff, think like Superman all the time.

 

[sopraisso]

What would your friend have done if the thug had a knife, or there were other thugs waiting at the corner? What if they see your friend in the future and look for revenge? What if your friend defends himself but ends up killing the other guy - how would he deal with justice? What if your friend didn't fight with full commitment as to avoid killing the guy... but the guy ends up killing your friend?

You should not fight without full commitment, once it can get you killed or seriously injured. So you should only go to the physical part of self defense when you are sure you have no better option available. Most people don't understand this. The list of things worth fighting for its much smaller than is usually thought of. It should hardly be worth fighting for your wallet (risking your life for a few bucks?), our for your honor or status. But when it is fighting or having something unacceptable to happen (being or having a loved one being killed or raped, for example), that is the time. Even if you are the best fighter around, you'll probably have trouble if you mess things out before it's the last option available.

Self defense can and should be used all the time. When it's late time and I decide to call a cab instead of going back home by foot I'm using self defense. Same when I avoid the knowingly more dangerous streets and places, and when I don't buy the fights someone could invite me to. I'm using self defense when I decide not to fight - if fighting would get me in more serious trouble.

Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando o Tapatalk 2

 

[almost a ghost]

For me it's two situations
1. When the attack has begun: a punch, push, kick, and even flashing a weapon at me.
2. When the attack is imminent. If I can get away from the person easily then it's not self defense, if I can't and I'm convinced 100% that it's going to go down then I'm not going to wait.

The result always justifies the means, and that's me getting home to my wife and kid and as far as I'm concerned that assaulter doesn't want me to do that. Being sued, spending a night/weekend in jail, and paying a fine are ant hills compared to what I would to get home to the family.

 

[Snowy]

Thanks for all the interesting replies.

I agree that common sense goes hand in hand with staying out of trouble in the first place.
Sometimes it may be unavoidable for things to come to blows and I guess that is when our Wing Chun skills would come into play.

 

[Cyriacus]

Sometimes it may be unavoidable for things to come to blows and I guess that is when our Wing Chun skills would come into play.

Not quite. Your Wing Chun skills are *mostly* for the fight stage of it. Theres a stage prior to that where one of you ultimately has to go for the other. That stage can be trained for, but even then its probably the most volatile part. After that, all your training should kick into gear.

 

[oftheherd1]

Thanks for all the interesting replies.

I agree that common sense goes hand in hand with staying out of trouble in the first place.
Sometimes it may be unavoidable for things to come to blows and I guess that is when our Wing Chun skills would come into play.

Go back and read jks9199's post. What we all need to concentrate on is at what point does it really become unavoidable to retreat, and how do we respond?

 

[Ediaan]

I think it's important to distinguish between self defence and self-protection.
With self protection, by being vigilant and alert, you can almost 90% of the time, prevent yourself from having to defend yourself.

Attackers, especially thugs and muggers, are opportunists and their victims are chosen.

Someone who looks alert, will not be as easily a victim as someone who is constantly texting on his cellphone and not being aware at what is around him.

To come back to the thread, IMO self defence happens when you have no other option but to fight, no matter what the situation is. Sometimes you cannot argue with someone who is on drugs or drunk, a mugger who is intent on getting what he wants or just a bully looking for someone to beat up.

Whether you should defend yourself or not, depends on the circumstances and situation you are in.

 

[Zero]

I think it's important to distinguish between self defence and self-protection.

To come back to the thread, IMO self defence happens when you have no other option but to fight, no matter what the situation is. Sometimes you cannot argue with someone who is on drugs or drunk, a mugger who is intent on getting what he wants or just a bully looking for someone to beat up.

Interesting, or maybe just semantics. I had never thought of there being a delineation between "SD" and "self-protection". All actions/behaviours that avoid confrontation or violence in my mind are SD. That is how I have trained and look at it. If you are jumped by an assailent that you may or may not be able to handle and are spatialy aware of another couple running to join the fray and you are able to disengage and leg it, that spatial awareness is SD. Likewise, when walking home and seeing a troublesome looking group up ahead and choosing another route or even when stepping out the door and thinking about the vibes you may be putting out, that to me is also SD. At my old club, awareness of surroundings and the potential intentions of others featured as much (ok not as much, but quite a lot) as physical techniques in SD discussions and training and sadly I do not think this figures heavily enough, if at all, in many clubs - be they sport related or traditional.

 

[Manseau]

I think this is a good assessment, but you might also want to know what your state's position is on "stand your ground" or "castle laws" to give yourself a clearer understanding of your responsibilities. I have a Utah concealed weapons license and a good point was made in that class by the instructor: If the police show up and want to get a statement after you have discharged a weapon, tell them that you want to co-operate and you will give them a full statement within 24 hours after talking to legal counsel. If you use a fire arm, you can bet on grand jury hearing. If you use your fist and it ends poorly for the assailant, you might be looking at a grand jury too. Discretion IS the better part of valor. Regards, David

 

[mograph]

Another question might be "at what point in the interaction does it become a confrontation?"

 

[Dummy]

From the point the physical aggression begins is the point it would be considered self defense, also if you manage to knock your attacker/attackers flat on their asses make sure to check their wallets for crispy goodies * KACHINGGGG!!* , if they don't have any money triple stomp the groin with full force.

Okay jokes aside , its story time , i use to have problems with certain people being extremely aggressive towards me during my later school years , im not proud to admit it but i took some really bad beatings... one day on our massive school campus these same people cornered me so i had no means of escape and then they took turns beating the **** out of me and then it turned into a stomping contest , i remember lying flat on my stomach while seven 17 year olds were kicking me from every angle imaginable , the best i could do was cover up , what really pissed them off was that even if they managed to give me a good beating i would never stop smiling in defiance , anyway after they were finished with me(which took a good 15 minutes or so) i washed the blood off the back of my head and cleaned my white school shirt which was mostly brown because of all the dirt and sweat,after this ordeal someone who was watching approached me , he said "you can take a beating but what good is it if you don't hit back", "HIT BACK HARDER THAN YOU DARE" he shouted , afterwards he told me how these people had bullied him too...well some uneventful days had passed and we both knew sooner or later they were going to come after us again only this time it was the two of us and we had 4 ft metal rods similar to barbells that body builders use in the gym , we had stashed them in a safe place and agreed that if they came looking for us again we would text each other and meet at the store room where we hid the metal rods...well that's exactly what happened when i got to the store room my friend was already there and as he handed me the metal rod we started swinging and even though we both took a few blows at the beginning we made sure that the every time we swung the rod it really counted ... three minutes later 4 of them were lying on the ground yelling in pain while the other 3 had run off...they never bothered us again.

What im trying to say is in the real world it really helps if you're prepared ,sometimes its not about how skilled you are at your art and more about how skilled you are at judging the situation.Ofcourse your training is the only thing that differentiates you from your assailant/s most of the times. Always be prepared for anything!

 

[K-man]

From the point the physical aggression begins is the point it would be considered self defense.

What im trying to say is in the real world it really helps if you're prepared ,sometimes its not about how skilled you are at your art and more about how skilled you are at judging the situation.Ofcourse your training is the only thing that differentiates you from your assailant/s most of the times. Always be prepared for anything!

Actually self defence starts before the physical confrontation. Under certain circumstances where the threat is sufficient you can take physical action before you are physically attacked.

Your story of hiding the bars is not one to emulate. I would be interested in what the LEOs on the forum would say but I would suggest what you claim to have done would be a premeditated assault with a weapon. Two wrongs do not make a right!
:asian:

 

[jks9199]

Actually self defence starts before the physical confrontation. Under certain circumstances where the threat is sufficient you can take physical action before you are physically attacked.

Your story of hiding the bars is not one to emulate. I would be interested in what the LEOs on the forum would say but I would suggest what you claim to have done would be a premeditated assault with a weapon. Two wrongs do not make a right!
:asian:

They could easily have turned a simple assault where they were defending themselves into a malicious wounding felony. While they were dealing with a situation where they were being attacked, and the numbers probably justified some escalation of force, the premeditated nature creates a serious problem.

 

[Dummy]

They could easily have turned a simple assault where they were defending themselves into a malicious wounding felony. While they were dealing with a situation where they were being attacked, and the numbers probably justified some escalation of force, the premeditated nature creates a serious problem.

It was either that or getting our **** kicked in again and again and again. And surely what they were doing was more than premeditated , it was habit for them. So i guess i won't be regretting my actions.