Over on another forum I came across a lively discussion on this topic. One faction are essentially WC minimalists and have a very narrow definition of what is WC. They discount throws along with a lot of other widely used techniques as strictly outside the domain of WC. At the other extreme are those whose WC is about as broad and inclusive as JKD. If they can make something work, they put it in their toolbox. I find myself somewhere in the middle. I try to stick closely to the principles and concepts of WC as I understand them. That means I try to preserve my structure, pursue centerline and maintain forward pressure, etc. On the other hand, if I can apply those principles and concepts in a way that smashes somebody into the ground, I'm a happy camper!
So here's what I posted on the other forum:
OK guys, I'm taking a tour through whatever I can find on Youtube to address this "throwing" question. Here's the first thing that I came across, and I think I'd agree with you that the structures and principles demonstrated aren't what I consider to be Wing Chun ...at least not my Wing Chun. Just too many things that don't fit. He's abandoned his WC structure, hunching over in the clinch (OK maybe that's because his opponent is so much shorter than he is), and concocts an overly complicated movement sequence to set up the throw, turning his back to his opponent, and so forth...
Now this next one appears to start out better with the attacker slipping up the outside, pinning the defender's arm across and striking forward across the defender's throat. But then Pulling him back towards you over your lead leg in a "sacrifice throw"??? How about keeping forward intent and using a huen-bo to circle your leg around and behind your opponent's leg? Then your forward pressure, perhaps combined with a turn (if necessary) would uproot and toss your opponent to the ground without violating WC structure or principles.
The following clip of WC Sifu Wang Zhi Peng has already been discussed at length. There are some throws in here that seem (to me) to be legit expressions of WC. For example the circle-step and arm throw at 1:36-8. I've succesfully used variations of that myself and it fell into place quite naturally in a "pure" WC context. Also, the stance disruption, hooking and sweeping with the lead leg as seen in 1:40-1:48 seems to be a logical adaptation of a pretty normal WC advancing step.
On the other hand, most of what he shows, especially after the "belt-snapping" exercise at 2:00 and onwards seems to be straight up shuai chiao and not WC. Yet he melds the arts pretty effectively. So while it's not my WC, it's still pretty cool as far as Chinese martial arts go.
Anybody else find some good clips relating to WC and throwing? Put 'em up!
Wait, wait, I'm back. I Just found another WC (WT) throw clip. These guys come from another, very different branch of the the same LT lineage I studied back in in the 80s -90s. After watching this, I'm about ready to rip the cute little red-stripes off my pants. Sheesh! Applied long pole punches, eh? After watching this, please don't tell me that I'm the only one who wants to beat the guy doing "applied battle punches" with a pole, ...or a shoe, or whatever else I can lay my hands on! I learned "battle punches" as a training exercise, not as an excuse to abandon centerline and fight like a ...bad Hung Gar stylist. Or, perhaps that was the point of the video. I can only hope.
So here's what I posted on the other forum:
OK guys, I'm taking a tour through whatever I can find on Youtube to address this "throwing" question. Here's the first thing that I came across, and I think I'd agree with you that the structures and principles demonstrated aren't what I consider to be Wing Chun ...at least not my Wing Chun. Just too many things that don't fit. He's abandoned his WC structure, hunching over in the clinch (OK maybe that's because his opponent is so much shorter than he is), and concocts an overly complicated movement sequence to set up the throw, turning his back to his opponent, and so forth...
Now this next one appears to start out better with the attacker slipping up the outside, pinning the defender's arm across and striking forward across the defender's throat. But then Pulling him back towards you over your lead leg in a "sacrifice throw"??? How about keeping forward intent and using a huen-bo to circle your leg around and behind your opponent's leg? Then your forward pressure, perhaps combined with a turn (if necessary) would uproot and toss your opponent to the ground without violating WC structure or principles.
The following clip of WC Sifu Wang Zhi Peng has already been discussed at length. There are some throws in here that seem (to me) to be legit expressions of WC. For example the circle-step and arm throw at 1:36-8. I've succesfully used variations of that myself and it fell into place quite naturally in a "pure" WC context. Also, the stance disruption, hooking and sweeping with the lead leg as seen in 1:40-1:48 seems to be a logical adaptation of a pretty normal WC advancing step.
On the other hand, most of what he shows, especially after the "belt-snapping" exercise at 2:00 and onwards seems to be straight up shuai chiao and not WC. Yet he melds the arts pretty effectively. So while it's not my WC, it's still pretty cool as far as Chinese martial arts go.
Anybody else find some good clips relating to WC and throwing? Put 'em up!
Wait, wait, I'm back. I Just found another WC (WT) throw clip. These guys come from another, very different branch of the the same LT lineage I studied back in in the 80s -90s. After watching this, I'm about ready to rip the cute little red-stripes off my pants. Sheesh! Applied long pole punches, eh? After watching this, please don't tell me that I'm the only one who wants to beat the guy doing "applied battle punches" with a pole, ...or a shoe, or whatever else I can lay my hands on! I learned "battle punches" as a training exercise, not as an excuse to abandon centerline and fight like a ...bad Hung Gar stylist. Or, perhaps that was the point of the video. I can only hope.
And here's another clip of a very different WT guy working some throws, this time Sifu Yannis Simionidis. Some of the movements are pretty flashy for my taste, but others seem more down to earth, and some are just mean and nasty! Can you see Emin's influence? At 2:09-2:12, he does a circle-step trip with an arm-throw very similar to the one demonstrated by Wang Zhi Peng above. At 0:36-39 he also uses his lead leg to hook his opponent's knee, pull and trip much like Wang Sifu.
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