Are forms necessary for TKD?

[skribs123 143]

I think most tmas just use forms for belt tests. It’s an easy marker. Its harder to judge sparring performance.

It is hard to judge sparring performance, but it's easier if it's something you see over the whole class instead of just 25% of it.

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

So "all someone wants to do is fight," I feel, misses the point. The ability to embody (in this case) taekwondo when someone else is actively trying to prevent you from doing so is actually a higher cultivation of the art, in my view.

Agreed that "Fighting" is part of the Art, and an important part. - My point is that there is more to the Art than just the fight. My perspective comes from Tk-D. Others who practice an art by similar or different names can have different perspectives. I certainly cannot address everything out there that some may place the "Art" label on and therein lies the point of my initial point in this thread - agreeing on what is or is not a "Martial Art" or what elements are essential t applying that term. You cannot simply define the terms "Martial" and "Art "to arrive at the meaning. That would be like defining "Cat" and "Fish" and think that explains Catfish.

 

[skribs123 143]

Agreed that "Fighting" is part of the Art, and an important part. - My point is that there is more to the Art than just the fight. My perspective comes from Tk-D. Others who practice an art by similar or different names can have different perspectives. I certainly cannot address everything out there that some may place the "Art" label on and therein lies the point of my initial point in this thread - agreeing on what is or is not a "Martial Art" or what elements are essential t applying that term. You cannot simply define the terms "Martial" and "Art "to arrive at the meaning. That would be like defining "Cat" and "Fish" and think that explains Catfish.

No, but you can look at a catfish and see why someone named that fish after a cat. So you could still analyze it that way.

 

[Prince_Alarming62 5]

I think probably the best approach to forms is a 'narrow but deep one'. Wado used to just have the pinans, kushanku, naihanchi seishan and chinto. We rarely get into advanced kata to this day. But we actually drill bunkai from them, and they work.

By the way, people who hate olympic taekwondo don't hate olympic taekwondo. They hate that they're not in the olympics.

 

[ap Oweyn26 2]

Agreed that "Fighting" is part of the Art, and an important part. - My point is that there is more to the Art than just the fight. My perspective comes from Tk-D. Others who practice an art by similar or different names can have different perspectives. I certainly cannot address everything out there that some may place the "Art" label on and therein lies the point of my initial point in this thread - agreeing on what is or is not a "Martial Art" or what elements are essential t applying that term. You cannot simply define the terms "Martial" and "Art "to arrive at the meaning. That would be like defining "Cat" and "Fish" and think that explains Catfish.

I hear you, Earl. And I'm not saying there shouldn't be. Just that it's a valid choice to teach TKD without the forms. I personally wouldn't view that as no longer being TKD.

I've never been a fan of too literal a translation of "martial" art. It's usually not war that we're emulating. It's personal conflict. So I didn't invoke the word "martial" in any of my posts here.

What I did suggest was that the interaction between two living people is the interesting part. To me, it's like practicing a speech versus having a conversation. I know which I prefer. And I don't need to do one to engage in the other.

 

[isshinryuronin13 13]

Just that it's a valid choice to teach TKD without the forms.

Forms are mostly important when they teach things (bunkai) not found in basic drills (kihon). When forms are taught that simply contain just blocks, kicks, punches, strikes and have no deeper meaning, they serve little purpose. Nothing is accomplished that a little creative drilling can't do, but forms may make it more fun and expressive.

But when forms contain more complex technique combinations that have application beyond the obvious, they become an integral part of the art. Removing the forms remove many techniques and applications.

 

[wab25]

If I am creating my own style and my own forms,

For me, this is the key. Are you creating your own style and forms?

If you are creating your own style and forms (or not) then I would not call what you come up with TKD. Let me give you two examples:

1. Some 3rd degree TKD black belt moves to town and he wants to get his 4th degree in TKD. He find STKD (Skribs TKD) and shows up. He has the expectation of seeing some type of TKD forms that he is used to. Instead, he sees totally different forms he has never seen before and or he sees a totally different modality of teaching. He won't be too happy about it and he may go write some interesting reviews about someone claiming to teach TKD, but is really teaching something totally different.

2. Some newbie to martial arts, wants to learn TKD.... he saw the Olympics, or he heard about it. He signs up and trains for a few years and then learns that a traditional TKD school works in an entirely different way. Even worse, he goes on vacation and takes his uniform and visits some other TKD school as a TKD brown belt, only to learn that what he learned is totally different and not traditional TKD.

Instead, call it your own thing. SKJ (Skribs Kwon Jitsu) Or Skribs Martial Arts Method.... This is your method for learning martial arts, based on your years of TKD, Hapkido and BJJ. Now, everybody that shows up knows from the get go, that while bits may be similar to, or even just like TKD.... the entire modality of teaching is totally different. You don't have to worry about people not having their expectations met.

Lots of folks go this route. You can still honor your lineage and keep your rank in those other arts.

From my point of view, if you want to call something TKD, you should be teaching in a way that will be recognized as TKD... even if it is merely to prevent bad reviews and bad press from uneducated folks. SKJ which is your own method, based on TKD, Hapkido and BJJ gives you the freedom to teach what you want, how you want... and you don't have to worry about some idiot walking and leaving to post a review about how "this guy claims to be a TKD instructor but what he is teaching is not TKD." No matter how you respond to that review, the damage has been done.

That said, the TKD school closest to my house has a huge store front sign that says "Karate." There has never been karate taught there.... they have always taught TKD and Hapkido.... they even taught some MMA, BJJ and Kung Fu.... but no karate. And they have been successfully running that school for decades now.

 

[Buka38 13]

Really?

This is just **** kicking like kids do in the playground!

The TKD I see in various dojang is completely different and very impressive.

Really?

This is just **** kicking like kids do in the playground!

The TKD I see in various dojang is completely different and very impressive.

Mocking the Paralympic Games, okay.

 

[skribs123 143]

1. Some 3rd degree TKD black belt moves to town and he wants to get his 4th degree in TKD. He find STKD (Skribs TKD) and shows up. He has the expectation of seeing some type of TKD forms that he is used to. Instead, he sees totally different forms he has never seen before and or he sees a totally different modality of teaching. He won't be too happy about it and he may go write some interesting reviews about someone claiming to teach TKD, but is really teaching something totally different.

2. Some newbie to martial arts, wants to learn TKD.... he saw the Olympics, or he heard about it. He signs up and trains for a few years and then learns that a traditional TKD school works in an entirely different way. Even worse, he goes on vacation and takes his uniform and visits some other TKD school as a TKD brown belt, only to learn that what he learned is totally different and not traditional TKD.

Except there are tons of styles of TKD already. Someone who goes from an ITF school to a KKW school is going to have this experience. Someone going from KKW to ATA is going to do different forms. Someone going from one KKW school to another is going to experience different in-house Kibon forms, maybe some other forms, and the rest of the curriculum is going to be in-house combinations and sequences.

Same with Karate. If someone were to go from a Shotokan school to a Kyokushin school, would they be upset that it's not the exact same as their last school, even though it's "Karate"?

At that, looking historically at people who have done this, and by and large they've kept the name of the style. When South Korea exiled General Choi, they made a new version of Taekwondo. They didn't create Tae Ki Do to differentiate themselves from him.

Instead, call it your own thing. SKJ (Skribs Kwon Jitsu) Or Skribs Martial Arts Method.... This is your method for learning martial arts, based on your years of TKD, Hapkido and BJJ. Now, everybody that shows up knows from the get go, that while bits may be similar to, or even just like TKD.... the entire modality of teaching is totally different. You don't have to worry about people not having their expectations met.

Lots of folks go this route. You can still honor your lineage and keep your rank in those other arts.

At this point I think you're hallucinating a conversation that isn't happening, because I'm talking about doing the exact opposite that you're claiming I'm saying.

Obviously if I were to do a school that was based on my TKD experience with other martial arts coming into it, I would still call it Taekwondo, because it would still be Taekwondo. It would be the same as any other Taekwondo school, just a bit different in the details.

What I'm talking about in this thread would exclude forms, exclude HKD and BJJ (which you're claiming it would include).

From my point of view, if you want to call something TKD, you should be teaching in a way that will be recognized as TKD... even if it is merely to prevent bad reviews and bad press from uneducated folks. SKJ which is your own method, based on TKD, Hapkido and BJJ gives you the freedom to teach what you want, how you want... and you don't have to worry about some idiot walking and leaving to post a review about how "this guy claims to be a TKD instructor but what he is teaching is not TKD." No matter how you respond to that review, the damage has been done.

You're almost there. You've almost figured out what question this thread is asking. Because you're talking past the answer here. The question this thread is asking is: are forms necessary for TKD? (Hint: it's in the title of the post).

You've talked about renaming it if I keep forms, but that's not the question. You've talked about bad reviews if it's not considered TKD and I call it that anyway, but again...that's not the question. The question is if I don't keep forms, can I still call it TKD?

(And before you say "of course, you can call it whatever you want", the question is in the context of the court of public opinion, not whether or not I am literally able to do it).

If you can figure out what the conversation even is about, maybe we can have one.

 

[skribs123 143]

Mocking the Paralympic Games, okay.

I didn't even notice that it was Paralympics. If I was, I would've just reported it instead of replying.

 

[Buka38 13]

I didn't even notice that it was Paralympics. If I was, I would've just reported it instead of replying.

No worries, brother.

 

[Buka38 13]

Barbara Nigel on my right, Arlene Limas on my left. We were competing in Africa. Sitting beside Arlene on the flight home I asked her what was next for her. She said, “I’m going to make the Olympic team and win a gold medal in Korea.”

I said, “You don’t belong to a TKD association, they’re not going to let you.”

She said, “I already have that part figured out.”

And she did. And did win a gold medal.

 

[skribs123 143]

Barbara Nigel on my right, Arlene Limas on my left. We were competing in Africa. Sitting beside Arlene on the flight home I asked her what was next for her. She said, “I’m going to make the Olympic team and win a gold medal in Korea.”

I said, “You don’t belong to a TKD association, they’re not going to let you.”

She said, “I already have that part figured out.”

And she did. And did win a gold medal.

How did she?

 

[wab25]

The question is if I don't keep forms, can I still call it TKD?

the question is in the context of the court of public opinion

I was just trying to suggest considering the opinion of the members of the public that will come to your school... and their expectations. They are the ones that will be writing reviews about your school and talking about your school.... Both the people coming to your school from a traditional TKD back ground and those who will start at your school and then later find a more traditional TKD school. What are these people's expectations when you call you style TKD verses when you call it something else? It was meant as a suggestion to think about, nothing more.

 

[Buka38 13]

How did she?

She went to the Olympic trials, first the regionals, then whatever ones come next. She won every match she had.

When she finally went to the national ones, to determine a place on the team she had three people with her. Again, she won every match, handily, too.

But it appeared she wouldn’t be making the women’s team. She introduced the three people with her. Her attorney, her state Senator and the lead reporter from the Associated Press.

They asked exactly how the women’s team was selected, the AP reporter openly recording it.

The official went to check. Lo and behold, someone had erred. Arlene had made the team after all.

 

[philwhite49 4]

That said, the TKD school closest to my house has a huge store front sign that says "Karate." There has never been karate taught there.... they have always taught TKD and Hapkido.... they even taught some MMA, BJJ and Kung Fu.... but no karate. And they have been successfully running that school for decades now.

This is super common. I use the term "karate" for our school even though most of the liniage where I learned came from Jhoon Rhee (who also used karate in much of his marketing). My old school did the same.

 

[punisher733 2]

IMHO, if you are changing something, then it is no longer what it once was. If you ONLY taught the individual techniques and removed everything else then it would no longer be TKD.

You could call it "TKD Combatives" or something else, but I think it would be intellectually dishonest to call it something that it isn't.

Now, that doesn't mean that you can't advertise or say that it is "TKD based" to show the roots of what you are teaching came from.

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

No, but you can look at a catfish and see why someone named that fish after a cat. So you could still analyze it that way.

OK - How about "Air" and "Plane" The whole is greater / different than the sum of the parts. "Cat" "Fish" is a funnier analogy.

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

By the way, people who hate olympic taekwondo don't hate olympic taekwondo. They hate that they're not in the olympics.

Nope.

 

[Prince_Alarming62 5]

Keep telling yourself that